mh7 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Since I work at an investment bank, I feel as if I > have a pretty good idea, yes. I felt this thread spoke specifically of investment bankers – people that do deals and assist companies in forming capital – and not just anyone that works at an investment bank. But anyway, I guess the reason for my disagreement with your analogy is that the process of getting a deal done can be very arduous, time consuming, and detail oriented. Even if it’s not rocket science, doing a deal requires a lot more skill, tenacity, and dedication than just selling used cars. I reckon that the type of clientele you’re dealing with when trying to sell companies, namely private equity firms and strategics, have much more of a discerning eye for quality and a general knack for due diligence. This is something that can be understood if for no other reason than the fact that we’re talking about the difference between hundreds of millions of dollars (companies) and several thousand dollars (used cars) – there’s a lot more money riding on the line and a lot more at stake. I understand that it’s always been popular for people to try to egg on investment bankers for whatever rationale or prejudices they may hold. Perhaps I misunderstand your “used salesman” analogy, but I read it as suggesting that you regard them with disdain and possibly being extraneous or unnecessary to the markets. But until an abundance of companies go out on their own to sell themselves to acquirers or set out to raise capital on their own, bankers will still be a pretty integral part of the financial system. As for whether or not people think bankers should be paid whatever their salaries are, that’s a whole other story. But speaking from a truly functional perspective, I don’t see even the recent shake-up on Wall Street making investment bankers fade into complete obsolescence. Investment banking, in some form or fashion, will always be around. Bankers make our lives a lot easier when we are trying to unload companies, and there’s a lot of stuff that we off-load to them just because we don’t want to deal with that stuff ourselves. Anyway, those are my personal opinions. I’ve never been an investment banker myself so I have no personal sympathies or affectation by people who just dislike investment bankers. But, I do have respect for the demands of their job and the type of work they put in, especially as I have hundreds of friends that are doing or were doing banking, and I myself sit across the table from bankers fairly regularly as an associate in PE. That said, I also have to admit that I haven’t been exposed to that much lack of ethics either, so my personal impression of investment banking in general may not be as tarnished as others’ here.
good post numi. some are born to be bankers and some aren’t. just do what you love. used car salesman, pitching for funds, or selling crack.
It depends where you are in the food chain. Boutique banks like Greenhill, Evercore, have been selectively hiring rainmakers. WSJ commented that salary caps would not impact traders, etc. who make loads of money: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123396963383059235.html That said, when they talk about I-banks, they are not talking about M&A. That was the dotcom story of late 90’s. Now its structured Finance’s turn. The public is right to demand - as a taxpayer you should be concerned - a correction to the asymmetrical payoff to the bankers where the losses are now being socialized.
don’t sweat it numi, for all we know the guy could be doing trade settlement in some IB’s BO somewhere in Wisconsin
spierce Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Ohhh, the humanity. They got paid for practically > doing nothing and living a decent life. > Considering a 50k bonus is more than the average > American makes in a YEAR, they should just STFU > and be happy they got something and aren’t out of > a job. > > It’s amazing how entitled these idiots think the > are. And why is it that an ivy league and/or MBA educated grad putting up 80-100 hour work weeks shouldn’t feel some sense of entitlement over the “average american”? Compensation may have gotten out of hand in recent years, but then you also have stretches like this where bonuses are practically nonexistant. At a minimum, I don’t see why bankers deserve any less “entitlement” than doctors or lawyers given all three professions demand similar work ethic.
good post numi… good info
Dermot81 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > spierce Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Ohhh, the humanity. They got paid for > practically > > doing nothing and living a decent life. > > Considering a 50k bonus is more than the > average > > American makes in a YEAR, they should just STFU > > and be happy they got something and aren’t out > of > > a job. > > > > It’s amazing how entitled these idiots think > the > > are. > > And why is it that an ivy league and/or MBA > educated grad putting up 80-100 hour work weeks > shouldn’t feel some sense of entitlement over the > “average american”? > > Compensation may have gotten out of hand in recent > years, but then you also have stretches like this > where bonuses are practically nonexistant. At a > minimum, I don’t see why bankers deserve any less > “entitlement” than doctors or lawyers given all > three professions demand similar work ethic. Please, I’ve put in many 100 hour weeks and I think some of the people in this industry are just f’ing ridiculous. I’ve been at work 48 hours to finish a deal up, sleeping under my desk for a few hours before the next round of docs. Yet I’m not sitting around demanding a bonus. Screw that, these self-centered pricks need to get some perspective on the reality of what’s going on out in the world right now. For all of their gilded M&A deals, structured finance machinations, and capital raises, they’ve done nothing more than pimp more debt and stupidity. Yes, a huge portion of bankers are nothing more than used car salesmen. Selling LBO debt like it’s the new coming as they shackle companies with debt service of 60%. My brother routinely works 7 days a week, 12 hour days, in a very physically and mentally demanding job, he probably burns 7-8k/calories a day in his job and he gets paid almost 6 figures. Yet he doesn’t think he’s entitled to a bonus, he just works his ass off. HIs job is just as, if not more, important than most single bankers. Yet, some dipstick at a bank sits in a cube and runs off ppt, or hammers out a PPM, or runs strats and negotiates legal docs at night and thinks he DESERVES a 6 figure bonus, is just fricking stupid. If you don’t have enough balls to admit that this industry shot itself in the dick and should take it like man, then you shouldn’t even be here. I get sick and tired of this faux righteous indignation over compensation by a bunch of overpaid snake oil hucksters in expensive suits.
spierce Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Dermot81 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > spierce Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Ohhh, the humanity. They got paid for > > practically > > > doing nothing and living a decent life. > > > Considering a 50k bonus is more than the > > average > > > American makes in a YEAR, they should just > STFU > > > and be happy they got something and aren’t > out > > of > > > a job. > > > > > > It’s amazing how entitled these idiots think > > the > > > are. > > > > And why is it that an ivy league and/or MBA > > educated grad putting up 80-100 hour work weeks > > shouldn’t feel some sense of entitlement over > the > > “average american”? > > > > Compensation may have gotten out of hand in > recent > > years, but then you also have stretches like > this > > where bonuses are practically nonexistant. At a > > minimum, I don’t see why bankers deserve any > less > > “entitlement” than doctors or lawyers given all > > three professions demand similar work ethic. > > Please, I’ve put in many 100 hour weeks and I > think some of the people in this industry are just > f’ing ridiculous. I’ve been at work 48 hours to > finish a deal up, sleeping under my desk for a few > hours before the next round of docs. Yet I’m not > sitting around demanding a bonus. > > Screw that, these self-centered pricks need to get > some perspective on the reality of what’s going on > out in the world right now. For all of their > gilded M&A deals, structured finance machinations, > and capital raises, they’ve done nothing more than > pimp more debt and stupidity. Yes, a huge portion > of bankers are nothing more than used car > salesmen. Selling LBO debt like it’s the new > coming as they shackle companies with debt service > of 60%. > > My brother routinely works 7 days a week, 12 hour > days, in a very physically and mentally demanding > job, he probably burns 7-8k/calories a day in his > job and he gets paid almost 6 figures. Yet he > doesn’t think he’s entitled to a bonus, he just > works his ass off. HIs job is just as, if not > more, important than most single bankers. > > Yet, some dipstick at a bank sits in a cube and > runs off ppt, or hammers out a PPM, or runs strats > and negotiates legal docs at night and thinks he > DESERVES a 6 figure bonus, is just fricking > stupid. > > If you don’t have enough balls to admit that this > industry shot itself in the dick and should take > it like man, then you shouldn’t even be here. I > get sick and tired of this faux righteous > indignation over compensation by a bunch of > overpaid snake oil hucksters in expensive suits. Thats what I’m talking about - never before have so many been paid so much for so little. While there is no question that bankers serve an important function, the big problem is that in the deals that I’ve been exposed to, the value they extract far exceeds their contributions.
its not just bankers, its portfolio managers too. i find that in finance, you get jobs more by who you know not what you know. a lot is about how well you can sell yourself. tons of PMs make crappy returns yet earn millions.
Some people have alot of audacity…all capitalists on the way up, socialists on the way down. Suck it up, deal with the fact you didn’t get a bonus and work harder for the next bull market. Or else show yourself the door so someone with half a brain and half an ounce of humility can take your place for the next cycle.
Great post spierce. You captured my feelings exactly.
My point is that these bankers figure they could do something more worthwhile with themselves and earn lesser pay and spend more time with their loved ones as well as having a life at the same time. If ibanking doesn’t pay, then people would rather get regular 9-5 jobs. Hard work deserves $$$ reward.
CFAdummy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My point is that these bankers figure they could > do something more worthwhile with themselves and > earn lesser pay and spend more time with their > loved ones as well as having a life at the same > time. If ibanking doesn’t pay, then people would > rather get regular 9-5 jobs. Hard work deserves > $$$ reward. I agree that hard work deserves reward. However, bankers are used to a huge amount of reward that, in many cases, is disproportionate to their work.
i think the problem is that, in the media, employee = banker. And it is not. There are many people in backoffice, you have a lot of junior people, you have IT, portfolio managers, marketing, etc. Many people who get paid a very low salary, and hope to be rewarded with the bonus (which is ridiculous compared to what an ED or MD can get). they should not be screwed just because Fixed Income put some shit in the balance sheet and blew up. i agree that perhaps overall compensation policies in the industry were out of sense, but the first thing that we should do to solve the problem is clean (i guess there is a better word in english) responsibilities, and get those guys out, plus their managers if they took those risks without knowing what they were doing (or they just underestimated them), plus the CEOs and boards of those companies. New blood, please. one more thing: if you recruit / hire really talented people, wherever company / university they come from, why would they join your bank? i guess because they look for meritocracy, they want to work in a place where they can develop whatever they are good at, and if they work hard they will be rewarded. if you fuck those employees, that perhaps are the only ones that can add some value right now… i don´t see any future for the business and why they should stay in their jobs instead of going out to other company or just create a new one (if they can) sorry for the long post ciao