SuperiorReturn Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > its not just work experience that gets you into > top b-schools, and it does not have to be finance > related. Yeah. You can BS almost any kind of work experience so that it looks good. Unless you’re old, the combined effect of your GMAT score and what undergraduate school you attended probably matters more than what specific job you have.
And extracurriculars, you gotta show them you have a life outside of school volunteer
@ bromion Since I’m so new to the field, I’ve been scouring to see if the CFA is the “right” path at this point. You’re in a HF, so if you’re hiring, would you take someone who passed levels 1 and/or 2 seriously for an entry level analyst? Would respected hedge funds in general look at CFA candidates who passed levels 1 and/or 2 seriously as well? Another related question: is the learning done through the CFA curriculum the sort of knowledge directly applicable to the work done in a HF? In other words, is the CFA merely a positive (or negative) signal and nothing more or does the actual learning done through the program actually relevant in a HF setting? I ask this because I’m so unfamiliar with how different areas of finance look upon the CFA, and obviously committing to this test if it has no relevancy would be foolish. And just a side comment: I’ve been searching for more information and I stumbled on someone saying that people in corporate finance don’t pay much attention to the CFA (and more to the CMA). Just curious if those who recommended this angle feel the same way… or any employer for a buy-side job that would put someone in a good position to apply for a HF feels the same way.
@ Neofinance On your last question. I agree the CFA will not add much for corporate finance(not as much as other things at least). I only mentioned corporate finance as a fall back option, or something that may help with the B-school thing.
So, I’ve been doing some further research on this forum and the internet, and this is what I’ve got: 1) Apply directly to HF and pray for a miracle (never going to happen unless someone helps me out). 2) Go through the sell-side in IB or equity research, work 2-3 years, then make a move into HF. So, what are the major differences between IB and ER from the perspective of a prospective HF employer? And is there a position “prior” to equity research, i.e. going up the ladder, or should I just directly apply? In other words, how do I break into ER?
I guess I should elaborate: For ER, is there such a thing as a generalist sort of firm? One site says work in ER department in securities firm, mutual fund, bank or pension fund. And if I work in a more focused role, like healthcare/biotech/pharma ER, if that is too narrow of an interest for the majority of HFs. Thanks for all the help!
I wasn’t going to post in here, but I’ve now felt a moral obligation. Neofinance; I’m sorry to break it to you, but with your background, you probably wont get a job in HF, IB, ER, and even corporate finance is a stretch at this point. This isn’t 2005, every finance job you see on Monster.com will get at least 200-300 applications. Most of the entry level jobs in this biz are given to students through on campus recruiting, and that boat seems to have sailed past you. Your ONLY prayer is networking. Contact alumni who have leadership jobs in finance (trust me, every school has a few who “made it”) and try to get some better perspective on the industry. Maybe you’ll get lucky and someone will take a big risk in hiring you. A great idea would be, before you actually get all caught up in who you’re going to give your vast HF fortunes to, you should actually find out what makes YOU happy, and what career (the actual day to day work) seems appealing to you.
Try getting an unpaid internship.
You are supposed to be able to add value to the fund or institution. Meaning, that you should know how to perform fundamental analysis.
@ volante99 Thanks for your honesty. I understand most opportunities are out of my reach, and the current season is not so welcoming, but how about in 1-2, even 3 years time? Hopefully the job market will look up by that time, and I may be a bit naive, but I would be in a better position if I pass levels 1 and 2, get more excel and C++ under my belt, and hopefully some (unpaid) internship experience under my belt, correct? And I’ll definitely have to sell my biology degree for those healthcare/biotech/pharma ER jobs and my Fulbright fellowship. And regarding HFs, isn’t a matter of networking and selling myself? I thought that ER associates usually compile a substantial contact list of buy-siders after 2 years, including HFs. Please correct me if I’m wrong. So, it seems that getting an ER job is the biggest hurdle, as of now, considering I’m not in the Ivy-league or an undergraduate. And for my reasons for getting in HFs: 1) fully enjoy understanding/analyzing the stock market, 2) love learning economics and finance, 3) find the prospect of competing with the best minds ANYWHERE to be a big enticement, and 4) want to use my earnings for a greater good - something I could never do at such a large degree if I became a doctor or scientist.
neofinance Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > @ bromion > > > Since I’m so new to the field, I’ve been scouring > to see if the CFA is the “right” path at this > point. You’re in a HF, so if you’re hiring, would > you take someone who passed levels 1 and/or 2 > seriously for an entry level analyst? Would > respected hedge funds in general look at CFA > candidates who passed levels 1 and/or 2 seriously > as well? Hate to be negative about this, but I think the CFA is overrated. I personally wouldn’t put much weight on it in the hiring decision – I’d be looking for fit, a long-term commitment, and the hunger to learn. Most of the training is done on the job, and from what I have seen, the CFA is mostly wrong or irrelevant to the buyside. I’m in the minority on that position on AF, but I derive almost no use for the CFA stuff that I learned. The accounting is inadequate, there is no modeling, and very, very limited business analysis. The CFA is an academic approach to finance, written by the guys who say the market can’t be beaten on a consistent basis – the same guys who make modest salaries as academics. A number of other guys, with different skill sets, have made tens hundreds of millions of dollars over an extended period of time in the stock market, so who are you going to believe? And by extension, which system would you rather learn? > Another related question: is the learning done > through the CFA curriculum the sort of knowledge > directly applicable to the work done in a HF? In > other words, is the CFA merely a positive (or > negative) signal and nothing more or does the > actual learning done through the program actually > relevant in a HF setting? I ask this because I’m > so unfamiliar with how different areas of finance > look upon the CFA, and obviously committing to > this test if it has no relevancy would be > foolish. I don’t think it’s ever negative – it’s a slight positive in that it shows dedication, and maybe a huge positive depending on the firm. However, you have to wonder about the firm that puts huge weight on the CFA – maybe they don’t understand how the stock market really works. The first place I worked for thought it was the holy grail and they definitely don’t get it – I read their research on First Call now for short ideas. Not to say I’m a fantastic investor or anything, but once you have a decent skill level you can tell pretty quickly when someone else is out in left field. But if you start in left field, it’s not that easy to tell that you are in left field. At any rate, ANY job would be a good starting point if you can get in, and you will probably need some form of paper credentials to do this, so what is your back up plan if you don’t do the CFA? It may be the best option. Tough call since there are no guarantees.
I agree with the acc. and business analysis part. Bromion, how did you elevate your analysis skills (w/o having gone through business school)? You wrote that you read 30-40 books on econ, finance, and accounting in addition to the CFA. Are management topics (ie. HBS) of use?
Quote (My favorite “moment” in my job is meeting a new CEO or CFO for the first time and watching their face as they realized that “I’m it”.) quote Whats it?
nocareer Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I agree with the acc. and business analysis part. > Bromion, how did you elevate your analysis skills > (w/o having gone through business school)? You > wrote that you read 30-40 books on econ, finance, > and accounting in addition to the CFA. Are > management topics (ie. HBS) of use? I got lucky twice by having good mentors who were willing to teach me at each of the firm’s I’ve worked for. Maybe this isn’t lucky, but it’s not something that I ever expected, that’s for sure. I’ve never read HBS cases, so I can’t comment on that. The best way to learn any skill is to sit down and practice it over and over again until it clicks. It’s hard to do that as a value investor, because you may have a 2-3 year (or longer) time frame on an investment – so what is the feedback mechanism? How do you know if you are getting it or you are fumbling around in the dark? The best way is to have a good teacher who has high standards and forces you to bring your A game every day, and is willing to explain things when you are wrong. I wrote down everything I heard from my boss and practiced it repeatedly until it made sense. It took about three years from scratch to understand what was really going – and I’m not talking about guessing about next quarter’s EPS numbers and recommending a stock because the price has started to go up (as happens on the sell side). I’m talking about “real” investing – contrarian and distressed situations that involve actually understanding accounting and what drives a particular business or industry. The short answer is that I don’t think there is a short answer to your question. I think you have to put in a lot of time and it’s not that sexy to begin with, but that’s like most things in life. If you want to learn, then look at a lot of companies – you’ll get faster and better over time, and it’s an exponential curve as the learning compounds.
@ bromion I saw your post concerning the CFA needing more practical and more “real-world” accounting applications to make test more relevant (please correct me if I’m wrong), so the negative sort of response was somewhat expected. I agree with you that if CFAI makes people commit so much time for the tests, might as well put some practical applicability into the curriculum. After more extensive scouring (or researching lol), how about going sell-side equity research, most likely as jr. analyst, through the healthcare/biotech/pharma angle. The CFA (levels 1 and possibly 2) would be MERELY a call signal and nothing more to get a foot in the door for an interview. It seems at this point, that is the best I can do to give myself a chance, even though I will probably compete with MDs and MBAs if I go for associate. I know there isn’t any guarantees, and I need to make the best of my time. “Hustle” is how you put it. Love learning this stuff and love learning about the stock market, so hopefully someone will see my passion and talent. Also, I will complement my skills by learning financial modelling and C++ and as much math possible. These skills would be always useful in HFs (generally speaking), correct? Then after 2-3 years in ER, use my buy-side contacts to get in. Sounds like the typical, well-worn strategy, no? @ lzen5 it = bromion = The Man
bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I got lucky twice by having good mentors who were > willing to teach me at each of the firm’s I’ve > worked for. Maybe this isn’t lucky, but it’s not > something that I ever expected, that’s for sure. > I’ve never read HBS cases, so I can’t comment on > that. > > The best way to learn any skill is to sit down and > practice it over and over again until it clicks. > It’s hard to do that as a value investor, because > you may have a 2-3 year (or longer) time frame on > an investment – so what is the feedback > mechanism? How do you know if you are getting it > or you are fumbling around in the dark? The best > way is to have a good teacher who has high > standards and forces you to bring your A game > every day, and is willing to explain things when > you are wrong. I wrote down everything I heard > from my boss and practiced it repeatedly until it > made sense. It took about three years from scratch > to understand what was really going – and I’m not > talking about guessing about next quarter’s EPS > numbers and recommending a stock because the price > has started to go up (as happens on the sell > side). I’m talking about “real” investing – > contrarian and distressed situations that involve > actually understanding accounting and what drives > a particular business or industry. > > The short answer is that I don’t think there is a > short answer to your question. I think you have to > put in a lot of time and it’s not that sexy to > begin with, but that’s like most things in life. > If you want to learn, then look at a lot of > companies – you’ll get faster and better over > time, and it’s an exponential curve as the > learning compounds. Thanks for sharing. Fumbling in the dark failing to figure out a successful mixed Macro/FA/TA personal strategy that I can market for future employers for active management: swing/position trading, personal portfolio management, and value investing (in my case) is my biggest fear. It takes a long time to realize I’m making mistakes and it really is distressing. So in your case it took three years. Not only that, but I am unsure yet of what industry sectors I should really learn and try to focus in. Damn. I’ve been trying to piece together my own effective investment philosophy and methodology (work in progress) on my own and I do not have a mentor. I do have, however, access to tons of books (I have around 50 (and with access to bookstores) and pretty good knowledge about what materials are out there) and I have been piecing together strategies and knowledge from these books in the most logical, systematic, and efficient way that I can possibly achieve. I do have, however, lots of doubts as I am effectively operating alone and it entails a lot of risk. The CFA has been an incredible time sink but it’s one of those things I have to do go on no matter what in my situation. The irony of course (and of which many here have experienced) is that the program has been detrimental to “real world” pursuits to me.
@neofinance - there are a ton of hedge funds that focus exclusively on healthcare as well as those that have analysts that cover that sector. All of them have a background like yours e.g. science first, investing second. I read about one only yesterday where the new PM had an undergrad science and CFA.
bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Hate to be negative about this, but I think the > CFA is overrated. I personally wouldn’t put much > weight on it in the hiring decision – I’d be > looking for fit, a long-term commitment, and the > hunger to learn. Most of the training is done on > the job, and from what I have seen, the CFA is > mostly wrong or irrelevant to the buyside. I’m in > the minority on that position on AF, but I derive > almost no use for the CFA stuff that I learned. > The accounting is inadequate, there is no > modeling, and very, very limited business > analysis. The CFA is an academic approach to > finance, written by the guys who say the market > can’t be beaten on a consistent basis – the same > guys who make modest salaries as academics. A > number of other guys, with different skill sets, > have made tens hundreds of millions of dollars > over an extended period of time in the stock > market, so who are you going to believe? And by > extension, which system would you rather learn? Agreed. EMH = a bunch of nonsense. It’s clear that some people are more connected into the market and they gain the abnormal profits that are there for the taking. The EMH assumes that all investors are equal and rationale. Obviously the occasional day trader does not have the same access to the guy sitting in front of a bunch of market screens at GS. Makes for a nice, elegant theory though. But usefulness… severely limited.
I have to agree with the sentiments of EMH and such. However, I suspect the rising or future breakthrough type of stars in economics have a more contrarian/realistic view. That said, doesn’t it help contrarians make money while most people naively believe what they’re told about finance? I think it would, so I’m not complaining. 
Of course, it’s only a matter of time until contrarian strains of economics/finance thought at universities reach the marketplace. More efficiency of markets at the cost of larger profits? Maybe. @Muddahudda May you please share where you read about the PM with a science background? Thanks!
neofinance Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > @ bromion > > I saw your post concerning the CFA needing more > practical and more “real-world” accounting > applications to make test more relevant (please > correct me if I’m wrong), so the negative sort of > response was somewhat expected. I agree with you > that if CFAI makes people commit so much time for > the tests, might as well put some practical > applicability into the curriculum. > > After more extensive scouring (or researching > lol), how about going sell-side equity research, > most likely as jr. analyst, through the > healthcare/biotech/pharma angle. The CFA (levels > 1 and possibly 2) would be MERELY a call signal > and nothing more to get a foot in the door for an > interview. It seems at this point, that is the > best I can do to give myself a chance, even though > I will probably compete with MDs and MBAs if I go > for associate. I know there isn’t any guarantees, > and I need to make the best of my time. “Hustle” > is how you put it. Love learning this stuff and > love learning about the stock market, so hopefully > someone will see my passion and talent. > > Also, I will complement my skills by learning > financial modelling and C++ and as much math > possible. These skills would be always useful in > HFs (generally speaking), correct? > > Then after 2-3 years in ER, use my buy-side > contacts to get in. Sounds like the typical, > well-worn strategy, no? > > > @ lzen5 > > it = bromion = The Man Research is different from banking where the entry level positions are the associates who will be working for the analyst. I have seen sell-siders jump to the other side of the phone, but getting your foot in the door is the hard part. Good luck with your job hunt, the markets are very competitive.