I know, sundevl21, but I’m not talking only about the necessity of it for practical reasons, but just because you want to. I’ve been told by English speakers that they don’t even understand why would I want to learn another language if I don’t need it for work. I get it if you consider it too much work and don’t bother trying, but I can’t understand the disdain about it. And although I agree about the geographical reasons for Americans, I’ve found the same attitude in Britons. And don’t be mistaken about Europeans’ knowledge of other EU languages. For instance, very few Germans or Britons speak Spanish, even when they spend their holidays in Spain in a regular basis. In fact, even many of them who are retired and actually live in Spain don’t speak a word of Spanish and live in their isolated mini-world of German/English retirees. Depending on their country and their age, it’s true that many Europeans speak English, but that’s it. The number of people speaking other languages besides their own and English is marginal (which is one of the reasons why the Union is and will always be flawed). Oh, and just as a piece of information: we don’t need a passport within the EU.
Fdez, First, most of my arguments don’t apply to my personal situation, and likewise aren’t directed personally at you. I’ve lived overseas in Europe and Asia, so I’m not speaking from a position of complete ignorance. I agree learning languages is good and fosters better international relationships, but I understand many people are not interested. Interest is often sparked by a need or a hands-on experience, and as I stated, many Americans don’t have any experience abroad nor need to master a foreign language. That’s why I don’t look down on people who aren’t interested in foreign languages just as I don’t disdain those who don’t care much for art, science, or some specific academic field. There are always exceptions of people that refuse to assimilate or branch into a foreign culture which is true of every nation. Finally, I’m quite familiar with Europe’s border control policies thanks to the Eurail. My comment about not needing a passport to travel was with regards to an American family vacationing to the Rockies instead of the Alps.
We had a confusion here (remember that English is my second language). When I said “I get it if you consider it too much work” I was talking in general terms, about anybody who thinks that way, not about you specifically. Sorry about that. I don’t by any means look down on people who doesn’t speak a second language or even those who don’t care about it. I just get amazed with people who seems like they wouldn’t want to learn another language even if they could do it while sleeping. I can understand the disinterest, but not the disdain they show about it.Of course, one can find these kind of people everywhere, but that attitude is very enhanced among English speakers due to some kind of hubris about the internationally privileged position of their language. And again, I’ve seen the same attitude among Britons. In fact, more than I’ve done among Americans, I would say.
About German : I don’t see why all of you are saying that tenses are difficult. In fact I think it is an easy aspect of the language. Overall German grammar has a huge wtf factor when you start learning it, but I feel it stems from the syntax: the word order in German can be pretty different from the one in romance languages and English. For example in German you would say, depending on the conjunctions: Ich bin zur Arbeit gegangen : I am to work gone. Weil ich zur Arbeit gegangen bin: Because I to work gone am Weil ich zur Arbeit gehen muss: Because I to work going must And it gets twice as unintuitive when you involve verbs like “must” and “should” and composed past tenses using auxilliaries, which people use in the spoken language. Think this is crazy ? Enter the verbs that split in 2. For example, vorstellen, which means to introduce, splits in vor and stellen. It would sound like that if you translate literally: Ich stelle mich sehr gerne vor : I duce myself with pleasure intro. *LOL* But they don’t always split: Ich kann mich sehr gerne vorstellen : I can myself with pleasure introduce. But the advantage with German is that it is an extremely unflexible language. Once you understand / know the rules, you’re fine. Now the real problem with German is that it is formed on a relatively small amount of words/particles that are put together to make new words, so that many words are easy to mistake with others since they all sound so similar. And homonims also happen in grammar. For example “der” can mean: Der Mann : the man Das Haus der Frau : the house of the woman (genitiv) Das Haus von der Frau: the house of the woman (dativ) Das Haus der Frauen: the house of the women (genitive plural) And then, finally, if you want to work in corporate finance in Germany, be prepared for some long, long, long words for which German is known: Lenkungsausschusssitzungsprotokoll: Management board meeting minutes. Sometimes I wonder why I learned this crazy language instead of spanish. Ok I’m going to bed now, peace.
Viceroy Wrote: > And then, finally, if you want to work in > corporate finance in Germany, be prepared for some > long, long, long words for which German is known: > > Lenkungsausschusssitzungsprotokoll: Management > board meeting minutes. > That’s not too bad, only 34 letters. It simply comes from writing it without spaces, like this: managementboard’smeeting’sminutes. Is this a real German word? “Donaudampfschifffahrtskapitänswitwenversicherungs-policenvermittlerprovisionsvorsteuerabzugsberechtigungsklausel” ? In my language one sentence without consonants is “And in the creek there is an island” where the word “the” comes out as a suffix “-a”. The umlauts tweak the sound of the original vowels: “Å i åa ä e ö!”
i heard there is a story in Chinese about a tiger, written in Chinese characters which are all pronouned as “she”. They say a Chinese person can read the text and he would think it is weird but comprehensible, without paying attention to the pronunciation. He would only understand the problem when he is asked to read it aloud.
I have some friends who work in the *ahem* intelligence industry; and just to give you a good idea how long it took them to a technically fluent level in certain languages, here is a break down Arabic, Chinese, Japanese: 1 year of full time study in the States, and about 1 year full time study overseas, and 1 extra year overseas on their own to really perfect their skills everyday in live situations (although, I know one guy who learned Chinese to 5/6 (advanced level on the HSK test in about 18 months). Generally, if you want to learn an Asian/Middle East language to fluency, plan on at least spending 2 years in the target country.
+1000 volante99 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I have some friends who work in the *ahem* > intelligence industry; and just to give you a good > idea how long it took them to a technically fluent > level in certain languages, here is a break down > > Arabic, Chinese, Japanese: 1 year of full time > study in the States, and about 1 year full time > study overseas, and 1 extra year overseas on their > own to really perfect their skills everyday in > live situations (although, I know one guy who > learned Chinese to 5/6 (advanced level on the HSK > test in about 18 months). > > Generally, if you want to learn an Asian/Middle > East language to fluency, plan on at least > spending 2 years in the target country.
Fdez, dunno where you live but I’m in total disagreement. I’m Portuguese, lived in France and now live in Spain. I speak four languages. Most of the people I know speak at least two languages, a lot three, some four and occasionally I meet someone who speaks five. The Brits, Spaniards and Italians are usually the notable exceptions. Speaking languages may or may not be useful in a business context (sure it helps to relate to other people in business meetings, but everyone speaks English anyway), but it’s definitely helpful for individual growth and generally being well-rounded.
Antonio, I speak according to my own experience. I’m Spaniard and have lived in Ireland, where I used to talk with people from all over Europe. I also know quite a lot of French and Germans. I agree about the Spaniards, Brits and Italians, but I would also add the French. Most of them speak just English, and often not very good, although usually better than Spaniards and Italians, which are by far the worst (both of them equally). Every single German I’ve met spoke English very fluently, but that’s about it. Seldom they speak some other language. I’m talking mostly about people from Western Europe in their senior year of university (any studies) and studying abroad. Of course some people speak three, four or even five languages, but I’m talking about the general case. People living close to their country’s borders, from multilingual countries like Switzerland or studying things like Translation and Interpretation or Tourism are a different matter. Same thing if you go into some specific contexts. Of course I totally agree with your last paragraph.
I’m sorry but I need to say something about the myth about all Germans being fluent in English: wrong. The general level is much better than what you will find in many european countries, but you will find MANY educated young Germans that speak shitty english. They can speak it, but are very uncomfortable, need to think to translate simple words, etc. Interestingly, Austrians speak much better English than Germans in my experience, and they are two very similar cultures. In my experience the myth does apply to the Netherlands and Scandinavia, though.
I know, Viceroy. As I said, the ones I met were people studying abroad, so they had tried to sharpen their English skills before leaving Germany, but many of them told me what you just said. Even then, the average level is way better than what you see in Spain, Italy or France.
Viceroy, and Switzerland.
Viceroy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In my experience the myth does apply to the > Netherlands and Scandinavia, though. I think you might be wrong about the Scandinavians…
I haven’t seen any Scandinavians who don’t speak English. I’ve been to Sweden and Finland, and I’ve met many of them in other countries. I agree that you can find a lot of Germans who don’t speak English. And I agree about Spain as well, but in Spain all the people respect and learn foreign languages, although unsuccessfully. The respect is so high though for those that master the languages.