Not really, I’d venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of firms that trade billions per day aren’t located in Milwaukee or any other non-finance hub city for that matter. Anyways, I think the point was that having the expectation of making “a few million” per year as a head of trading one day while working your way up from entry level execution based trading role is pie in the sky.
Your dream trading job is trading on firms’ behalf or making trades for HF, the job you are looking at is simply a processing job, won’t be worth the move to Chicago.
yup this sums it up real good.
“trading” jobs these days are very different from those of 20 years ago. Now, the research portion is much more robust and structured from fundamentals to quants to stats to maths, etc. The trader nowadays no longer have the discretion or authority anymore. The trader is now merely a broker whether you’re on buy or sell side…If you’re on the sell side, sometimes they are referred to as sales…
On the buy side, you’re just executing trades - a glorified ops gig at best.
Of course there are exceptions but in my experience in hedge funds in NYC in the past 8 years…The above is the norm for “traders”
I’ve worked in both operational SMA trading as well as Institutional SMA trading on the buy side. I can assure you Institutional trading on the sell or the buy side is NOT a glorified ops position. I guess it depends on the type of assets the firm manages. I barely spoke with our large cap portfolio managers but traders are definitely a critical part of the investment process for say an International ADR or small cap portfolio. At any rate, to answer your question, just before I transitioned from operational SMA trading to Institutional trading, I was offered 70k at another firm by a former boss for another operational trading position while another former boss offered 50k at a smaller firm.
I make much more than that on the Institutional side though but even on the Institutional side, you could expect at approx that much as a junior trader. I made 48k + bonus as a trading assistant when I initially started. With all of this said… my firm has just south of a trillion in AUM so it really depends on the firm and how much value the desk is adding to the investment team(s).
No offense, but idk if your salary would be enough to what I spill in beer a month. Where in the heck are you based? Your base is paltry and that big bonus is taxed at what 40 percent? Still, hard pass.
This reminds me a phrase from the book “Wall Street Meat” that I read many years ago, that particular section of the book was describing the trading operation and risk taking behavior of traders are very different now, in one quote “Back in the 80’s, Goldman instruct its traders that if you can’t find the other side of the trade, you are it, that is the liquidity. Now days, if you are the other side of the trade, you are fired!” Classic! Good read if you have time.
That is very good insight, again not trivializing your job function, but your group is still taking instruction from the PM, let’s say, the PM wants to establish a 5% position in some small cap stock (which can be thinly traded), and your group’s job will be find a way how to trade (build up the position) quietly, 1000 shares per day or something like that. That is still very different from the job old-school trading job where firm’s capital is at risk.
you say trading is not a glorified ops job yet the title of the job is Operational Trading Position…mmmm kay makes sense…This is like saying “I’m not a secretary, I am vital to the company…I am assistant to the CEO!!!”
Joke aside and I apologize for poking at you…But at most buyside hedge funds…
Analysts pitch a position and submits mini presentation to the PM…The PM then reviews the overall report and spreadsheet (Macro view) and decides whether to buy and if so, how much to buy…He then instructs OR sometimes when the fund is almost fully invested, the PM talks to the CFO to review our buying power…THEN either the PM or someone senior in the back office INSTRUCTS the Trader what to buy, how much to buy, and what price…
For equity trades, usually the dir of ops just fills it in…for less liquid trades such as corp bonds, the Trader call brokers (traders at brokerage firms aka sales team) to look for the other side…
Trader is merely following directions…has no discretion whatsoever…When the trader is out, usually the back office people fills the void…
Traders have no knowledge in research, coding, market views, stats, write up to investors…They are real estate brokers (Traders in real estate) in finance…
Of course quant funds “traders” are more like coders and their codes, which they created have full discretion to buy and sell…Totally different animal…
You guys are basically defining the difference between prop trading and trading clients’ money. There’s way more money in prop trading but “regular” traders at fund companies still make a good living.
The question was what salary range would be expected for an SMA trader. I was attempting to distinguish an operational SMA trader from an SMA trader that sits on an the Institutional desk as those two roles are delineated at my firm. The 50-70 range was for a more operation trading role offered to me 13 years ago while I was still in ops… I was giving a frame of reference for the OP. The 48 was base and i never disclosed bonus. I said that to counter what another poster said about trading assistants not receiving a bonus. It depend on the company. That isn’t what I currently make… however, some people do and they are content with that, or it is a solid entry level salary to break into trading.
Sure… maybe at some firms. But I can assure you, your assumption about the diminutive role of ALL trading desks on the buy side is #fakenews. I really loathe going back and forth on social networking sites but to put it into context, our desk has a Trading research team, a dedicated quant team, and TCA team. Not sure the firm would allocate so many resources to a department that just simply carries out instructions and turns the orders over into the good hands of BD’s
lol, I never went into detail about the position. You guys are just making stuff up.
operational SMA trader 50-70
institutional trading assistant - 48k base + bonus
Junior Institutional trader - 70 ish
head SMA trader an Institutional desk is 100+ and this is still a more junior role
This is all contingent on the firm though.
I never said ALL TRADING…I did write that at hedge funds I have worked at…If you look at the sites - if they have one - of medium sized hedge funds, quite a few actually have Trading under Operations…Now that does not mean they make pennies…After all they make about equal to Controllers but of course way less than research analysts at hedge funds…controllers at hf make ~200k-250k all in so not too shabby (I have only worked at sub 1b hedge funds with <15 people which is actually a sweetspot when the hwm hits)
Case in point, as Black Swan pointed out as well as my previous post, you said it yourself that the position you were offered was Operational Trading…haha
Plus your salary numbers are not impressive at all and they rival those of back office jobs.
Easy inifininty benzo, you don’t have to go crapping on salary numbers.
you guys are inferring something from my reply that isn’t there. I didn’t say it was by my or anyone else’s standards a “great” salary. That wasn’t the question. The question was about the range. I answered what the range was for OPERATIONAL SMA TRADING which is what i was offered over a decade ago. Without any trading experience, that is probably what can be expected as either a more operational trading role or junior institutional trader role. We have operational trading and we have Institutional trading. I’m conceding that there is a difference. I never in a single post said they were one in the same. Nor did i go into detail about the functionality of either role or the range for more Senior Traders. I don’t feel like it and it doesn’t answer the question.
I really don’t like salary shaming because some people may very well be content with what we or you perceive as “paltry”. Some people simply don’t value money in the same way. But since we’re reading between the lines today, I clearly don’t fit into that category because I most certainly wouldn’t have put myself through the stress of the curriculum if I were content with my “unimpressive” salary that I never disclosed…
Don’t worry, Infinitymercedes is a poser
Mercedes?? I have a toyota only because it lasts a long time = save $$$
yeah that was uncalled for…
Guys, wtf. I said I’m not taking the y’ob. Calm yo-selves.