If my kid goes to private school. Why should I have to pay taxes for public schools? My house hasn’t caught on fire and I haven’t been the victim of a crime. Why should I have to pay for a fire department or police officers unless I need those services? Why should I pay into Social Security – if I make plenty of money and will likely never need to rely on that for retirement. There are many services I will likely never need to rely on. But as a civilized nation, we have decided that it is fundamentally a good idea to provide these services to everyone. NOT to do so is not only cruel, but also not in your own self interest, if you want to look at it that way. Let me appeal to your selfishness, Ayn Rand fans. It is in your self interest for your neighbor’s house not to burn down, because yours might catch on fire. It is in your self interest to provide education for all, because then a bunch of poor uneducated people won’t be trying to steal from you, sell your kids drugs or beg for money because they can’t get a job. It is in your self interest to fund a police force in case, like all government services, you might need them someday. It is also in your self interest to ensure that ALL have access to health care. When people who don’t have money in this country get sick, they either go to a public hospital (federally and/or state funded), go to an ER (and crowd it with chronic illnesses so if you have an actual emergency you will have to wait hours) or default on their payments to hospitals and doctors (so those entities have to raise your rates to cover their losses or go out of business). Either that or they just die because they can’t afford to get health care.
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If my kid goes to private school. Why should I > have to pay taxes for public schools? My house > hasn’t caught on fire and I haven’t been the > victim of a crime. Why should I have to pay for a > fire department or police officers unless I need > those services? Why should I pay into Social > Security – if I make plenty of money and will > likely never need to rely on that for retirement. > > There are many services I will likely never need > to rely on. But as a civilized nation, we have > decided that it is fundamentally a good idea to > provide these services to everyone. NOT to do so > is not only cruel, but also not in your own self > interest, if you want to look at it that way. Let > me appeal to your selfishness, Ayn Rand fans. It > is in your self interest for your neighbor’s house > not to burn down, because yours might catch on > fire. It is in your self interest to provide > education for all, because then a bunch of poor > uneducated people won’t be trying to steal from > you, sell your kids drugs or beg for money because > they can’t get a job. It is in your self interest > to fund a police force in case, like all > government services, you might need them someday. > It is also in your self interest to ensure that > ALL have access to health care. When people who > don’t have money in this country get sick, they > either go to a public hospital (federally and/or > state funded), go to an ER (and crowd it with > chronic illnesses so if you have an actual > emergency you will have to wait hours) or default > on their payments to hospitals and doctors (so > those entities have to raise your rates to cover > their losses or go out of business). Either that > or they just die because they can’t afford to get > health care. well put Sir!
“Why should I pay into Social Security – if I make plenty of money and will likely never need to rely on that for retirement.” Good example – Social Security has a $17 Trillion unfunded liability in perpetuity. That doesn’t include entitlements for medicare. We should be cutting back the current entitlement programs and yet we have created a new one. http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/14/taxes-social-security-opinions-columnists-medicare.html .
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Oh btw if you own a car are you not > legally forced to have car insurance? Is that not > coercion of the state on the > > individual (forced to buy car insurance)? How do > you justify that? You’re not required by law to have a car or a driver’s license. How many people in NYC have no car and therefore no car insurance? Driving is a privilege and part of the price of that privilege is buying insurance to at least partially cover the cost of the damage you might cause to other people’s health and property. The mandated auto insurance are not for your benefit. Life, however, is an unalienable right according to the US Declaration of Independence. If I wish to exercise my unalienable right to be alive though, now I must pay to insure my health whether I want to or not. While its admittedly rare, some people don’t want to pay to insure their health. Why should they no longer have the right to choose to be uninsured?
higgmond Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Oh btw if you own a car are you not > > legally forced to have car insurance? Is that > not > > coercion of the state on the > > > individual (forced to buy car insurance)? How > do > > you justify that? > > > You’re not required by law to have a car or a > driver’s license. How many people in NYC have no > car and therefore no car insurance? Driving is a > privilege and part of the price of that privilege > is buying insurance to at least partially cover > the cost of the damage you might cause to other > people’s health and property. The mandated auto > insurance are not for your benefit. > > Life, however, is an unalienable right according > to the US Declaration of Independence. If I wish > to exercise my unalienable right to be alive > though, now I must pay to insure my health whether > I want to or not. While its admittedly rare, some > people don’t want to pay to insure their health. > Why should they no longer have the right to choose > to be uninsured? Because your freedom ends when another person’s freedom begins. By not having insurance, if you end up having an accident or get seriously ill, I will end up paying for you - a lot more. No one will leave you out to die (at least we should not in a civilized country). As I said before, I would have preferred a simple public option instead of only private insurance. But thats another battle.
Listen if you don’t like America you can get the hell out! (you have no idea how much fun I have saying that to whiny republicans).
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Because your freedom ends when another person’s > freedom begins. By not having insurance, if you > end up having an accident or get seriously ill, I > will end up paying for you - a lot more. Who says I want or would accept medical treatment?
higgmond Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Because your freedom ends when another person’s > > freedom begins. By not having insurance, if you > > end up having an accident or get seriously ill, > I > > will end up paying for you - a lot more. > > Who says I want or would accept medical treatment? Oh you would just quitely pass away, eh? What if you were badly injured, unconscious and the ambulance had to whisk you away to the ER for immediate treatment? Who foots that bill if you don’t have the money?
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Oh you would just quitely pass away, eh? > What if you were badly injured, unconscious and > the ambulance had to whisk you away to the ER for > immediate treatment? Who foots that bill if you > don’t have the money? My medical ID bracelet specifically indicates that I am not to receive any medical treatment without my prior consent. In the event of my incapacitation, such consent must be provided by my spouse.
Higgmond has a death wish.
higgmond Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > marcus phoenix Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Oh you would just quitely pass away, eh? > > What if you were badly injured, unconscious and > > the ambulance had to whisk you away to the ER > for > > immediate treatment? Who foots that bill if you > > don’t have the money? > > > My medical ID bracelet specifically indicates that > I am not to receive any medical treatment without > my prior consent. In the event of my > incapacitation, such consent must be provided by > my spouse. What if your arm got severed during the accident and you lost your bracelet?
Zokeseh Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Higgmond has a death wish. Actually, I have religious freedom. I do not ask that anyone agree with my beliefs, only that they respect them as I respect theirs.
@ Higgmond, sorry wasn’t aware that this was related to a particular religious belief you had. I respect that.
sublimity Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > - liberty: coercion of the state on the > individual (forced to buy health insurance) Well, some of my tax money (past and future) has gone to fund a war I was against. A significant percentage of the population is not allowed to get married to the person they want to marry in the state where they live. There are states in the US where you can’t buy booze on Sundays, even though I might really want to. Republicans are all about protecting the liberty and rights of citizens as long as those citizens share the same values.
Frisian makes a really good point here!
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > higgmond Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > marcus phoenix Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Oh you would just quitely pass away, eh? > > > What if you were badly injured, unconscious > and > > > the ambulance had to whisk you away to the ER > > for > > > immediate treatment? Who foots that bill if > you > > > don’t have the money? > > > > > > My medical ID bracelet specifically indicates > that > > I am not to receive any medical treatment > without > > my prior consent. In the event of my > > incapacitation, such consent must be provided > by > > my spouse. > > What if your arm got severed during the accident > and you lost your bracelet? In that highly likely event, I hope the emergency/hospital personnel will make the effort to call the ICE (In Case of Emergency) numbers in my cell phone and/or check my wallet for my ICE card. In the slightly less likely, although still highly likely, event that my arm is severed, my wallet is ripped from my back pocket and thrown clear of the accident scene, and my cell phone is ripped from my front pocket and thrown clear of the accident scene, I will pay for whatever care is provided prior to my wishes being known. Should I not survive, I trust my wife will ensure that the bill is paid by my estate, as she will know that the care was provided with the best of intentions and was not an intentional attempt to violate my right to refuse treatment. I’m rather certain that my estate would be able to fund such expenses. Should my wife also be incapacitated in this accident, my other emergency contacts are aware of my wishes.
frisian Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Republicans are all about protecting the liberty > and rights of citizens as long as those citizens > share the same values. Small but vocal factions of both major parties fit this description. The vast majority of both major parties basically believe in protecting the liberty and rights of all citizens regardless of their values. Unfortunately, the small, vocal factions on each side get most of the publicity and also get most of the votes in primary elections because most people don’t vote. As a result, we are stuck with choosing between extremes in most general elections.
higgmond Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > frisian Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > Republicans are all about protecting the > liberty > > and rights of citizens as long as those > citizens > > share the same values. > > > Small but vocal factions of both major parties fit > this description. The vast majority of both major > parties basically believe in protecting the > liberty and rights of all citizens regardless of > their values. Unfortunately, the small, vocal > factions on each side get most of the publicity > and also get most of the votes in primary > elections because most people don’t vote. As a > result, we are stuck with choosing between > extremes in most general elections. “The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.” http://www.potw.org/archive/potw351.html
the passage of this bill really put a bad taste in my mouth- it reeks of pet project that is being rushed through no matter how many absurd and illogical policies it contains. Let me say I don’t think we are perfect either; I’d like many reforms but this proposal sucks. I agree with many of those here on the constitutionality questions. The car insurance comparisons are ridiculous, so are all the other ones (police/fire/ etc.) since those agencies are public and directly funded by the state. Doctors and hospitals will not be- so its not a valid comparison (thank God or our hospitals might be as technologically advanced as my local DMV). Comparisons of other countries are also lame IMHO for the following points- 1. Japan- trying to use a basically homogeneous nation that has a culturally instilled healthy lifestyle to the US is ludicrous to begin with, but even so I wonder how their system will work in the next 50 yrs when they are projected to be nearing 40% of ppl over 65. Maybe we should have obligatory tai-chi in the morning- would probably save more money than this bill…only halfway joking 
2. Where would WORLD health care be without US innovations? I would reach out and say that many of the innovations are born because of our structure. I am not sure of this but no one ever seems to bring this up. 3. The ‘rankings’ of money spent is lame too- as many have noted an absurd amount of money spent is in the last couple of days of grandma’s life when she is hooked up to the newest and priciest machines that are not available in many parts of the world. Our cancer patients spend an extra 100k to like an miserable extra couple weeks. This doesn’t happen in most parts of the world so their expenses are far lower. I say pull the plug on me and grandma… but thats not exactly politically sound is it? I read one of those buffons say that the issue is ‘all those healthy people that are not insured and not paying into the pool to support the sick’. This ticks me off- why should I be punished for my health? I agree that those unlucky one’s who were given a bad roll deserve treatment (and get it now), but the majority of ‘the sick’ are people who lead an unhealthy lifestyle and now there will be even fewer incentives to take care on oneself. For every kid born with some terrible pre-existing conditions, there are 500 fat 50 year olds with adult onset diabetes and heart disease. My final question is this… I also want someone to explain to me why, under this new policy, any financially clever family would not cancel their insurance , pay the relatively small fine and routine medical expenses and purchase insurance in the even of catastrophe since there will no longer be pre-existing condition exclutions. Is there something there to prevent this? If possible it would defeat the purpose no?
@ akansa; at your point 1. This is incorrect that comparisons of other countries are, in your words, lame. The reason being is that many of these studies look at outcomes as opposed to overall health and the results are the same. Also these studies, like the WHO study, compare the U.S. to other western nations like Canada. How can you explain why the U.S. is behind Canada in overall health system and health outcomes? Canadian eat the same fast foods. Face the facts our health care system on a macro level is not good. Obviously, if you’re a billionaire, well it’s the best system money can buy!