Of course he is going to talk about his views…why not! (BTW…hes been right so far…) And if he is making money by backing his views…thats what investors are paying him to do! How does that display a lack of integrity like you suggest?
Ok, maybe saying he has no integrity is being a bit hard on him, but I believe he is exaggerating the problem in the press in order to make more money from the situation. To me it honestly resembles a pump and dump strategy, justa bit more sophisticated (and in reverse). Is it ethical for me to short Citigroup (say) and then generate a media storm by appearing on every media outlet I can find and state as often as I can that I believe that Citi is on the verge of bankruptcy, when I know it isn’t?
It does make you wonder if they couldn’t have a higher tax band (say, 70%) for people >$1bn. The counter-argument of diminishing returns to entrepreneurs would seem a little out of touch with reality. I would agree with the original poster if he is suggesting that, say, $1bn/year is adequate compensation for any achievement.
But then you just get tax competition. These things have happened before - look at personal tax rates in the 60s and 70s - they were astronomical. The Beatles sang “it’s one for me 19 for you, TAXMAN!”. With top tax rates at 40%, you still get people like Philip Green, Jenson Button, Lewis Hamilton (and most of the Americans in London after the domicile rule changes) leaving and paying 0 tax to the UK. Hence why a flat tax makes sense. Only this week Shire pharmaceutical are moving to Jersey/Ireland, and with therefore pay no UK tax. People who make £1bn pay £400m tax. Plus the spend a sh*tload, so that’s lots of lovely sales tax. Plus the employ people (lots of income tax etc.)
newsuper Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Ok, maybe saying he has no integrity is being a > bit hard on him, but I believe he is exaggerating > the problem in the press in order to make more > money from the situation. > > To me it honestly resembles a pump and dump > strategy, justa bit more sophisticated (and in > reverse). > > Is it ethical for me to short Citigroup (say) and > then generate a media storm by appearing on every > media outlet I can find and state as often as I > can that I believe that Citi is on the verge of > bankruptcy, when I know it isn’t? Are you kidding me? Of course its not ethical to do what you’re saying, but he isn’t doing what you are in your example. If you can’t see the difference between spreading a lie and pounding the table on views that have some basis…well, actually I’m not quite sure what to say in that case. He is far from the only one out there saying we’re in free fall. If he was spreading unfounded rumors; throw him in jail, but that isn’t the case.
Soros has a history of Pump and Dumps.
What about Bill Ackman? Is what he’s doing OK?
I think something that people are overlooking is that Paulson didn’t make $3.7 billion for sitting around and “managing money”. He made that much by creating probably 5x that much wealth (don’t know his fee arrangement). So think about the taxes his investors paid on their gains, which were way bigger than his gain, and think about all the charitable contributions they’ll make with their money. It’s not like he stole it, he earned it. If you helped close a really big deal for your firm and your boss gave you a one-off, very large bonus (think 20% of the value you added to the company), would you turn it down, or feel guilty? Hell no. I’m a little surprised at the socialistic attitudes I’m seeing on a finance board.
“I’m a little surprised at the socialistic attitudes I’m seeing on a finance board.” It’s easy to be socialistic when you’re incredibly jealous.
Everyone keeps mentioning that this guy will make charitable contributions. Let’s hold off on that until we have evidence of the amounts he is giving and the causes he is giving to. I may or may not deem them worthy.
farney Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If you > helped close a really big deal for your firm and > your boss gave you a one-off, very large bonus > (think 20% of the value you added to the company), > would you turn it down, or feel guilty? Hell no. I’m working on a deal that would add 10% to our bottom line. I have little faith in seeing anything more than an ada boy.
XSellSide Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > farney Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > If you > > helped close a really big deal for your firm > and > > your boss gave you a one-off, very large bonus > > (think 20% of the value you added to the > company), > > would you turn it down, or feel guilty? Hell > no. > > I’m working on a deal that would add 10% to our > bottom line. I have little faith in seeing > anything more than an ada boy. Oh I’m certainly not saying you will get it, but if you did, you wouldn’t and shouldn’t feel guilty. And I could care less if he makes charitable contributions. It’s his money, if he wants to 50,000,000,000,000,000 Krystal burgers, be my guest.
Here’s a start I guess… “He has told friends he’ll increase his charitable giving. In October, he gave $15 million to the Center for Responsible Lending to fund legal assistance to families facing foreclosure.” http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120036645057290423.html?mod=WSJBlog TeamHydro Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Everyone keeps mentioning that this guy will make > charitable contributions. Let’s hold off on that > until we have evidence of the amounts he is giving > and the causes he is giving to. I may or may not > deem them worthy.
StuckinMinn Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Here’s a start I guess… > > “He has told friends he’ll increase his charitable > giving. In October, he gave $15 million to the > Center for Responsible Lending to fund legal > assistance to families facing foreclosure.” > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120036645057290423 > .html?mod=WSJBlog > > > TeamHydro Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Everyone keeps mentioning that this guy will > make > > charitable contributions. Let’s hold off on > that > > until we have evidence of the amounts he is > giving > > and the causes he is giving to. I may or may > not > > deem them worthy. 15 mil that’s it? He’s got at least 985 mil to go!!
TeamHydro Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > StuckinMinn Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Here’s a start I guess… > > > > “He has told friends he’ll increase his > charitable > > giving. In October, he gave $15 million to the > > Center for Responsible Lending to fund legal > > assistance to families facing foreclosure.” > > > > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120036645057290423 > > > .html?mod=WSJBlog > > > > > > TeamHydro Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Everyone keeps mentioning that this guy will > > make > > > charitable contributions. Let’s hold off on > > that > > > until we have evidence of the amounts he is > > giving > > > and the causes he is giving to. I may or may > > not > > > deem them worthy. > > 15 mil that’s it? He’s got at least 985 mil to > go!! I hope this means you give away at least 27% of your pre-tax comp. Oh, and that ignores the fact that most of his “pay day” is probably tied up as equity in his funds.
FIA, you can’t compare a billionaire’s percent giving to a regular guy’s, just for the record. If Paulson gave away 95% of $3.7 billion, he’d still have $185 million and would not change his lifestyle in one way. A guy making $100,000 per year giving away 27% is a lot different.
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I definitely think that a manager who used his brains to generate excess returns or reduce risk for investors is indeed VERY worthy of a large bonus payment. No question. I have problems with useless c suite executives pulling down 15 or 30 million being, largely, administrators. I mean how hard is it to boss people around and re-fine org charts. Willy
Absolutely deserved…they’re not a CEO taking a salary, they get paid on performance. I don’t even see why this is open for debate. I’m never “disgusted” with how much money one makes…I agree that 3 billion is a lot but hey…he EARNED it. And there’s really no arguing with that. Now for a CEO, that’s a diff story, but for managing money and getting those astronomical returns for your clients…that’s capitalism at it’s finest. And you know what the best thing is??? EVERYONE IS FREE TO DO THE SAME THING HE DID!! Be inspired…not bitter…
I like the timely use of “bitter.” I’ll take the bait, tell me where I’m wrong? (no flames) Did he really create wealth? What wealth…I’m sure most of his gains were taken from the derivative market so it’s not like he was providing capital to the next google. In fact, couldn’t you argue that he put a strain on the capital markets by tying up all these funds in the zero sum gain world of the derivative markets? Did he really earn it? Did he really take risks? Isn’t it the investors in the fund that took all the risk? I mean if you give me a billion dollars tomorrow and I short the hell out of oil, gold, euros, etc., in a year’s time i’ll have either have lost you all your money or taken the number one spot on this ranking (add a 2% management fee and it might be in my interest to do just that). No question this guy is on top of his game, I’m sure he and his staff are literally geniuses that were able to use pure skill to squeeze out a few more percentage points in his returns, but how much is luck and how much is skill? I mean it’s not like the guys on the other side of these trades were idiots. Should these returns be celebrated? Is it a good thing that funds with this much capital at stake could produce such big returns? Is this too much risk for a private pool of capital? I mean if all these funds could produce such high returns simultaneously, why couldn’t they all fail simultaneously? Luckily, the markets recovered quite well after Amaranth and LTCM, but what happens if 5 or 10 Amarantcs or LTCMs occurred simultaneously?