Um, I really hate to jump in after the fact and explain a joke, because it kills the original edge but, uh, the joke is that the EMBA campus is in HACKENSACK, NJ because if you take the EMBA versus the regular MBA, you should probably be hackin’ sack – specifically, your own – directly off the remainder of your body.
^ LOL!!!
Thanks again for your input, Numi. Actually that $500K number was not arbitrary; I picked it since there are some megafund PE associates making in the $350-$500K/year range who decide to attend HSW MBA. Once we’re talking high six and obviously seven figures, it probably doesn’t make sense to do an MBA (although I know a guy who made portfolio strategist at Bridgewater who ended up going to Stanford GSB and a guy who sold his startup for $170 million who is at HBS now, but those are the exceptions).
At the same time though, I think there is a lot to be said about the network, signaling value, and the overall experience of being surrounded by so many high achievers for 2 years. It changes you: the change can be negative if you let it get to your head, but otherwise you can use the MBA experience to further motivate you, expand your perspectives, and make you see the world in a different light. Simply put, I think the MBA has the POTENTIAL to fundamentally alter your professional and even social trajectory.
A friend once asked me the following hypothetical: if you had the choice of going to HBS and paying sticker OR attending a top 15 program such as say UCLA, Ross, Fuqua, Darden, and receiving a $1 million tax-free check, which would you take? I actuallly said HBS because for me personally, the HBS experience outweighs the material benefits of having $1 million in my bank account. But I know I’m in the anomaly when it comes to this.
So my choices are either
1.) Go to Harvard and pay the $200,000 out of pocket, or
2.) Go to Duke for free and receive $1m tax-free cash.
I don’t have to think really hard about this one. I can have a lot of “experiences” with $1m.
Feels somewhat strange to say this, but I think the amount of adulation for top MBA’s on this thread is excessive. If someone approached me and probably many of my friends/classmates with such a mentality, we’d probably find it slightly bizarre. Most of us are just “normal” people.
On another note, $1 million tax-free can buy a lot of stuff.
Agreed.
Hey Numi, how much would you say your MBA networkhelp or have helped you in investing/becoming a better investor? Do you think the effect (if any) is comparable to VIC, conferences, the job itself or whatever you think it’s useful?
Crazyman, much of my learnings come from the job itself – I’m currently a senior analyst at a well-known hedge fund, though it wasn’t always like that. Before getting the job, my learnings came from just reading a ton, whether it’s investment books, investor letters, VIC, or basically anything interesting I could get my hands on. Coffee chats are also really helpful since you can pick up a lot of lingo just by casually bantering about investment ideas.
As for the MBA network, my school has a sizable presence on Wall Street, particularly in the hedge fund community, so alumni connections have been helpful too. My network was much more concentrated towards other alumni when I was trying to get a post-MBA job on Wall Street, but now my closest contacts consist of people that I like spending time with, are thoughtful, and are generally really passionate about what they do. It helps that many of them went to my same school which has provided a similar basis for socialization. However, I would have likely befriended them if they had not gone to the same university or business school anyway. Good investors can come from many walks of life, and I’ve generally found that people that are truly passionate and disciplined can find a way to get into the industry.
Finally, I don’t like to advertise my degrees or prior work experience – I’d rather people be impressed by the substance of my investment ideas rather than the style, and develop a positive reputation among my peers that way. From them, I sometimes I hear people talking about my background and degrees or whatever, but it’s much better to have other people advertise for you than to have you advertise about yourself.
I’ve always believed that if you do good work and are good to people around you, people will find out who you are as long as you put yourself out there and not keep your head down all the time. That is what I’ve tried to do throughout my career, and it has suited me well so far. You get others to help you when you help them first, and when you represent yourself as someone that people want to help.
Thanks, Numi. That was a fantastic post. I do share your values and I think your last paragraph exemplifies a great way to look at life.
Just to put my situation in (a little) context: I’m in a position where I can put to use practically anything that I learn investment-related, but it’s also a very lonely and self-taught work for the most part.
I try to hit the books agressively, and I did learn a lot of interesting stuff from work, maybe not so much on valuation and stock picking though. What I think I’m missing is the exchange of ideas among friends/colleagues in finance.
So I guess I have somewhat of a double disappointment. My friends don’t like finance - hence I miss the fun of discussing it with them. And most people I’ve met in finance aren’t passionate enough - so they lack some interest and, also, by extent, they also lack some knowledge.
I have the job that I like, all the books I can read and unlimited Bloomberg access - I feel my biggest weakness is the lack of access to passionate and knowledgeable financial minds. So I’m trying to figure out a path to fill this void. The MBA was one of the ideas. Conferences, online forums and short courses are some others…
Crazyman, I totally know what you mean when you say it’s hard to find a community of other investors with whom you can banter and exchange ideas. I can sympathize because the hedge fund community is pretty insulated and is one of the most difficult to break into, and many times it’s the dialogues and ideation that lead to the most refined theses. However, just going to business school doesn’t mean you’ll find that community there either – investing is one of those weird things where a lot of people seem to have opinions, but most people don’t know what they’re talking about. Even at a leading business school, while there tends to be a group of people that are really interested in investing, many of them knew a lot about investing even before school started and tend to “self-select.” In other words, even at business school, people tend to want to only mingle among people that have similar knowledge and skill as them, mostly because their free time is so precious and it’s all about earning highest ROI their time.
It’s tough to find a local investment club where people really know what they’re talking about, but in the interim you can continue to educate yourself and have your own investment “monologue.” VIC has the highest quality discussions and generally the best quality pitches. There are some on Corner of Berkshire and Fairfax as well but that isn’t a site that I track regularly because there is no quality control there. But in any case, whenever you read something and you aren’t sure if it’s true, do some fact-checking yourself and see if things make sense. If they don’t, find the answers on your own. It’s not the same as having someone experienced “teach” you stuff all the time, but most of what I have learned in this industry hasn’t been through having a mentor – it’s just been through exposure and osmosis. The “learning” is really a by-product of one’s hunger and intensity to beat the markets and outgain the competition. That isn’t to say that I haven’t had valuable mentors – they’ve been very helpful insofar as providing gut-checks at critical junctures of my research process, job leads, and just battle testing my investment process – but most of the time, I’m on my own. There’s nobody babysitting me and my research. I need to figure things out on my own so I (and my portfolio manager) don’t get whacked by the bad calls on my part.
Business school certainly does bring a lot of people that are passionate about investing together, and certainly my being in the “right” surroundings helped me learn faster - you can say that it opened up a few new doors for me. But for me to actually walk through those doors, it was about out-hustling and working harder than the next guy. I have always counted on myself to be able to do that.
In your situation, you are best off trying to network through alums or second-degree contacts. Perhaps even reach out to those on AF or whatever other forums you use, and see if anyone you respect is willing to look at your investment ideas. When you find someone that is willing to take time to “mentor” you, you should make the most of that relationship. The first chance you have to meet them, show them a couple of investment ideas and ask their honest feedback. Walk them through your pitches and see what questions they ask you. Then see if they can introduce you to other people. It’s all about networking but you only gain traction when you have things to offer. Investment professionals are always looking for ideas and if you can bring someone good ideas, they will likely be happy to continue dialoguing with you. You are already asking a lot of the right questions and you strike me as someone that is intellectually curious and really committed to becoming a good investor. I just hope you find others around you that are similarly driven.
Until then, develop your own process for generating and analyzing ideas, ask yourself the tough questions, find someone that can challenge your ideas, and just keep refining. In addition to VIC you should also read investor letters from various hedge funds or asset managers, so you can learn about the investment processes and ideas of other investment professionals. Pay attention to those that have come before you; understand their victories and their mistakes. Get to know the winners and avoid the losers. Once you do, you’ll have more confidence in your own investment approach.
This industry is all about initative, creativity, developing contrarian opinion, and having the guts to put money where your mouth is if you really believe you’re better than your competition. Hope this helps.
Numi, thanks again for your in-depth analysis and insights. There is no doubt that you’re one of the most important contributors on this forum.
Your point about people at b-school self-selecting and hanging out with those who share their interests, is surprising to say the least. My understanding was that people in b-school hang out with as many people as possible in order to maximize their social experience. Or is that just b-school marketing?
Also, at your school was there a decent group of students who were interested in macro investing, fixed income, currencies, etc.? Or is the investing crowd heavily biased towards stocks?
Thanks.
Thanks. There are way too many people at business school and people self-select based on interests, personality similarities, and so forth, so it is impossible to spend time with “everyone” (and oftentimes doing so leads to pretty mediocre socializing experiences). I think for the first couple months of school, people are very apt to mingle but afterward they tend to get pretty focused on doing their own things. Of course, there will always be social butterflies but for the most part, in business school, there is too much to do (or at least too many options) and too little time.
There were people interested in all different types of investing, but mainly private equity or stocks. That’s because there is a greater mix of people that owkred in private equity before business school, and stocks are always pretty popular simply because they are one of the most accessible asset classes to most people not to mention that many of the fundamental principles of business can be applied.
Thank you so much, Numi. That was a fantastic post, and it was really kind of you to share your views in such depth. I saved this post for future reference and I will make sure to follow your advice.