Hello, I am very close to graduation and started crunching out job applications in the past month. I’ve finally started to feel the benefits as the interviews are starting to come in. When I was applying I noticed pretty much three streams that companies recruit for: investment banking analyst, sales & trading, and whole sale banking services. Can anyone tell me a little more about the different tracks in terms of salaries, career growth opportunities etc? I’ve done a bit of research but still don’t know which I would choose if I had too. I get the impression that investment banking would be the most competitive; however, this may just be an opinion I developed from the media. Also, if I get an offer, how long do I think I can hold off before taking the job or declining it?
It sounds like you are at a target school. Your school should set a date that companies can’t force you to answer before. Thats not to say all companies will play by the rules, but I never had any issues when I went through the process. Typically, those dates will give you at least 2 weeks to make your mind up, and sometimes more. S&T and banking are very different careers. What do you want long term?
Investment banking is the most competitive to get into out of college because for some reason, everyone applies for it. This may be just because IBanks need lots of analysts who are not burned out to do legwork. Hence they spend lots of time promoting these positions at colleges. I am highly biased towards sales and trading, especially trading. If you get a good position, you can make a reasonable amounts of money right out of college without an 80-hour work week. Over your career, your salary will be roughly equivalent to that of investment bankers. The problem with sales and trading is that the positions are not as standardized as that of IBank analyst. This means you will have to look closely at the different jobs to determine which ones are worth going for. You will also find that sales and trading differ significantly. Trading jobs typically require that you have good quantitative and/or programming abilities. Sales jobs rely on people skills, for obvious reasons. Additionally, most trading jobs do not require you to leave and get an MBA after a couple of years. This might be a positive or negative thing for different people. Many sales people have MBAs, but it’s not as important as it is to IBankers, most of which need MBAs before becoming associates. Wholesale banking is essentially corporate banking. It is the least competitive of the three tracks that you mentioned.
walrus: What are the prospects in trading for a non-quant top finance MBA? (UChicago/Columbia/MIT)
You do not need a quant degree for many (most?) trading roles. Certainly it is required for some products, but distressed, equity, high yield, investment grade, etc… you don’t need a masters in computer science. You do need to be good with numbers, but thats a far leap from being a quant. Coming out of a top school you should have a shot at a role at a large firm, but hiring is much thinner than on the i-banking side.
buyicide Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > walrus: > > What are the prospects in trading for a non-quant > top finance MBA? > (UChicago/Columbia/MIT) If you have an MBA from a top school, I would say that you would have a decent chance at many positions, outside of macro factors like the recession. I agree with FIAnalyst that the degree of quant-ness that you need varies by product. Different floors look for different characteristics in job applicants, so if you are a smart person with good general credentials, there is a good chance that you will find a match somewhere. Keep in mind, though, that some quantitative ability is always valuable in this field. Like our fellow commenter also mentioned, trading floors are often characterized by low turnover, so there are generally fewer positions open at any given time.
That’s good stuff guys.
Thanks, great info guys. Thanks, I have the level 1 and was pondering if it might be more valuable for me to wait it out and see if I can get into a rotational program with an asset/management, or some sort of research analysis position. Would continuing the CFA be a waste if I went into sales/trading? I’m pretty new to this finance career stuff. I really appreciate it guys. BTW, im actually going to a small university that probably no one has ever heard of. I will have to attribute my success to having completed the first level.
cpham Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Would continuing the CFA be a > waste if I went into sales/trading? Here are some thoughts based on my observations. I work on a derivatives trading floor and hardly any of my day-to-day functions are improved by studying the CFA curriculum. However, around half of the traders here have CFA charters. Their motivation (and my motivation) for taking the CFA exams is to demonstrate intelligence and aggressiveness. It hardly matters that the material itself is mostly irrelevant to our jobs. As you probably know, prestige is a major factor in determining your success in a finance career. For this reason alone, the CFA program might be worth finishing as early as possible. There is nothing that finance people respect more than a hardworking person who puts 100% effort into achieving his goals. The more ways you have to demonstrate these characteristic, the better.
That’s good to hear Walrus - I’m gonna stop pestering you after this question: What are some other good resources / forums to learn about trading (I’ve read the Vault guide and it is pretty weak) I have a bunch of questions that I need to research on my own (Best products for a non-quant, best grad schools to break in, what computer language fluency level I should get, exit options, sell side. thanks
Hmm… unfortunately, I relied on my coworkers for learning how to trade. It really is something that you learn on the job. The books that I have read are mostly about options valuation, so they might not be useful for people who don’t deal with these things. If you are thinking of going to graduate or business school, I’m certain that there will be investment clubs that you can join and get experience from.
I meant the career aspects. Essentially Vault ^3. What type of skills are best suited to which products, exit options, training programs, that sort of thing.
HMW - I’m with buyicide on this one. Pretty hard to find the career info for S&T roles as they seemed a little more secretive compared to IB.
cpham, if you have time, “the practical guide to wall street” (it’s in B & N and amazon.com) may be of some use to you. It’s a 500 page guide written as a training tool for incoming sales and trading analysts and naturally it describe the business in exhaustive detail.
Thanks nocareer, I’ll check it out now. Maybe… I can find a summary online or something. I have an interview for a sales & trading associate position Tuesday. Not sure If I want it. I hear all you can do after a few years of trading is trading since everything you know is so specialized. What about middle office? Do you guys think there would be a lot of opportunities in a middle office trainee program.
Why do you want to work in Middle Office?
Not sure? I have an interview for a trainee position. I was just wondering if there were any redeeming features to being in middle office. Everyone is usually pretty down about it. Just wondering if I should just take it if they offer it to me. A bird in hand is better than two in the bush? I’ve only started applying for jobs… and so far only have two interviews, one for S&T and other for a middle office position. I might screw up the S&T and not get anymore interviews… the banks don’t even recruit at my uni.
People don’t like middle / back office positions, because of the following reasons: 1. Low pay / bonuses 2. The work doesn’t require much creativity. It is basically doing the same task over and over. 3. Very few exit opportunities, since you are a cost center. If I were you, I’d go for the S&T position. If the middle office position is at a boutique, it may be easier to move up into front office, but it gets much harder if it is a bulge bracket bank.
agree for the most part with NYCAnalyst, but middle office can be a hundred different things. if you are working directly with the traders & are on the floor a move to the desk could be possible. its something you’d have to inquire about during the interview process. every desk head is different so you never know…