Let’s give credit where credit is due while speaking objectively: I moved to bulge bracket IBD in M&A in part for having passed all 3 exams. Now on this job, I can say that all the book knowledge gained has only help me minimally. Why? Here is my take: 1). CFA covers too many topics with most of them you’ll never need to recall (Think of your college major and the loads of arts/science classes taken throughout schooling). 2). Whether in ER, IBD, or any other field, nothing beats solid work/industry experience (the other side of my point above). And chances are those specific skill sets are not covered by the CFA So just how useful/good is the CFA? I see it as an alternative to the MBA; and like an MBA, the CFA covers the basics that you’ll need to be competent and gives you an edge to standout in job interviews. For those of us who are either unable or unwilling to throw the kind of money towards an MBA (or for whatever reason), the CFA is a good investment. It’s by no means the cure-all, but it does give you a fighting chance to take your career somewhere.
I agree that the actual material from the CFA exam isn’t tremendously useful in doing your job well in most FO jobs. But having passed even level 1 definitely puts you ahead of other candidates that don’t have it on their resumes. I was interviewing for a buyside FI job a while ago and I asked one of the portfolio managers what they look for in candidates. He basically said he looks for three things on a resume C F A. I made a move from back office to ER recently. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have gotten an interview had I not been a l2 candidate. If you’re looking to get your foot in the door, passing a couple levels is definitely helpful. There maybe more efficient ways of getting into ER, such as networking, but the CFA is certainly a viable route.
Wow, lots of hate on this thread based on weak straw man and ad hominem attacks. My original contention was that the CFA material is useless or nearly useless (with a few exceptions as I posted – not an exhaustive list, but that probably covers most of the useful parts for the kinds of jobs people actually want). As you can see reading the thread, people who actually work in the industry find the material unrelated to real jobs that people actually want. Maybe it helped them get the job, maybe not, but that’s not the point. The point is that there are lots of things that “might” help someone get a job, and some of those things are more efficient than others. The CFA exams are a very inefficient way to get a job, that’s all – and if it helps in getting a job at all, it’s much more likely to be because of signaling value (work ethic, some level of intelligence) than because someone actually learned something of relevance. And let’s be honest: most people here have no experience in the industry and just post tired, recycled comments about top school, pass your CFA exams, blah, blah, blah. You really don’t know, and the comments show that clearly. It’s definitely fair to post alternative view points based on real experience so that people evaluating the prospect of spending hundreds of hours studying to try to break into the industry have a balanced perspective. So along those lines, if anyone of the detractors from the OPs thesis has constructive points to give about why the material ISN’T useless for real jobs, then please post. Otherwise, your hateful posts will be construed as just coming from another CFA fan boy who enjoys having wet dreams about studying GIPS, etc. I’ll save you the suspense: nobody cares.
Looks like I have a different prespective than most. I manage private investment portfolios operating as principal of my own firm since '06. I’m currently registered to take level 3 in June. Level 1 Dec '09. Level 2 Jun '10. In polling my clients, not one of them had heard of the CFA program and, obviously, none of them care if I can use the designation or not. I have no intention of ever taking on another client or finding another job. I’ll sit on the beach and drink Purple Haze(mix it with Turbo Dog if you’re looking for a treat) before that happens. No, I don’t mind berries in my beer. I have found the CFA curriculum to be right on the mark for it’s given purpose. Graham wanted evidence of fitness to do your work and this is it. I’ll agree it may not be great evidence, but it is better than anything else. If you tell me somebody is going to be responsible for my nest egg and I know nothing else about the person except that one has a top ten MBA, one as the CFA Charter and one has a CFP designation, I’ll take the charter holder everytime, followed by the top ten MBA and I’d roll t-bills 'till the end of time before I would go with the CFP. From August of '08 until March of '09 was the busiest time of my life. Eat, sleep, make sure i can make clients richer for, what, eight months. Half that time was spent just getting the background so I could understand what the hell was going on. My life would have been a lot easier if I had already gone through the program. Just the initial exposure to CDS’s would have been invaluable and well worth the time put into the program. I exposed my clients to 1-2% position in AIG preferreds at a buck fifty. If my knowledge of CDSs had been better, I have no doubt I would have bumped that up to 5%. The opportunity was gone before my knowledge base could really catch up. We never know what the markets are going to throw at us, so having a little exposure to everything is exactly the point. My latest move has been taking some positions in the down trodden muni market. Can’t hurt that the CFA program spent a little bit of time on them. Probably sped up my analysis if nothing else. Bottom line: If someone is going to run my money, they better have the Charter. Acts as a good filter. And since i don’t like being a hypocrite, I figured i should pursue it.
I’m so tired of this troll. He either hasn’t read at all what others have posted, or is just totally blinded by his own beliefs. I’m starting to bet he doesn’t have the CFA charter at all, and failed/gave up somewhere in the middle and is discouraging everyone else. bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Wow, lots of hate on this thread based on weak > straw man and ad hominem attacks. > > As you can see reading the thread, people who > actually work in the industry find the material > unrelated to real jobs that people actually want. People in the industry have clearly posted the material IS relevant to jobs people want. > Maybe it helped them get the job, maybe not, but > that’s not the point. It clearly HAS allowed people to land those jobs. At least 3 people have said it point-blank. > The point is that there are > lots of things that “might” help someone get a > job, and some of those things are more efficient > than others. The CFA exams are a very inefficient > way to get a job, that’s all – and if it helps in > getting a job at all, it’s much more likely to be > because of signaling value (work ethic, some level > of intelligence) than because someone actually > learned something of relevance. Trying to argue what’s the “most efficient” way to land a job is useless. Different things work for different people, but the CFA is the one standard that is the same. I went through 3 dozen interviews in the last 4 months, and the CFA curriculum helped me nail all the technical questions, and got me the Equity Research job. Without the studying, I never would have got it. > And let’s be > honest: most people here have no experience in the > industry and just post tired, recycled comments > about top school, pass your CFA exams, blah, blah, > blah. You really don’t know, and the comments show > that clearly. This just shows your total ignorance. > Otherwise, your hateful posts will be > construed as just coming from another CFA fan boy > who enjoys having wet dreams about studying GIPS, > etc. I’ll save you the suspense: nobody cares. I’ll save everyone else: Just ignore this troll. Isn’t it obvious enough he’s a sad person with no life when he has to come onto a CFA forum, and talk about how useless the program is? And then ignore all other comments proving him wrong? Troll. Just move on people…
I use large parts of the curriculum in my work pretty much every day. Econ, Quant, PM, FI, Equity, Derivatives. Even Ethics comes up. I probably use the accounting stuff the least, but even that comes in handy. True, the curriculum isn’t exhaustive, and real situations require knowledge or thinking of things that aren’t covered in the program, but for me it’s a strong base without which I couldn’t function effectively and I wouldn’t be able to absorb the parts I do know. I’m one of those people who did the CFA program in part because I’d spent so much time in universities that I figured my family would stop talking to me if I went for an MBA. It would be nice to have the networking tools that an MBA offers, as well as better knowledge of marketing strategies, but other than that, I found it a fine substitute, particularly if you are targeting asset management or hedge fund roles. It’s true that if you want to be an investment banker, then there’s a lot of extraneous stuff in CFA that won’t be used, and if your highest aspiration is to do ER and figure out if IBM will beat earnings expectations by $0.02, then just go learn WSP and then start practicing on your own (at least until you can find a position elsewhere). People who can’t see the big picture shouldn’t be managing portfolios and have no place in the CFA program anyway. There are a bunch of people who probably think it was pointless to learn calculus in college because, after all, most of the world functions on just arithmetic and a little algebra. And maybe when you’re ringing up a sales slip, that’s all you really need, but the idea of slopes, velocities, how things change in time, etc. - all that analysis is still useful even if you aren’t differentiating equations on a daily basis. Why? Because it enables you to think farther and see the big picture.
skimmed thru posts. My background is 1 yr of BO/MO and 4 yrs of SS ER, non target school and only went through CFA level I. I didn’t know anyone in the industry when trying to get my foot in the door so obviously it wasn’t the CFA, MBA, or having an Ivy league school attached to my resume that helped me. It was networking and being persistent. Here are my 2c on some of the topics. CFA - agree that it’s generally not applied to ER. However, CFA does help you get interviews b/c there’s some comfort knowing that if the person you’re interviewing has passed level II or III, there should be some level of competency behind their ability to interpret and analyze financial statements. MBA - I work at a BB and my firm prefers undergrads for ER. Why? Because these young aspiring professionals tend to work harder with less feelings of entitlement. Other firms prefer MBAs. Bottom line, it depends on the firm. Personally, only reason to get an MBA is if you’re making a career change, work in the corporate world and are trying to get into C level management, or to network. SS ER - yes, fundamentals is a big part of the job. However, those that understand the business of SS ER know that we’re salespeople first. This job does not necessarily (100% depends on the analyst you work for) help you become a better stock picker. It does however provide you with the opportunity to build relationships with buyside clients, internally with sales and trading, I bankers through vettings, and corporate management teams that you cover. To me, this is the most valuable reason to work in SS ER. You can either be that nerd sitting quietly in the corner running models all day never talking to anyone, or you can be that outgoing person that is proactively building relationships and a network (mindshare) that provides you with the next opportunity. As you progress in your career, your most valuable asset becomes your network. bottom line, like everything in life, it depends. no absolutes. So for those taking CFA, I would say continue as it can only help you get noticed, but would first focus on networking. If you don’t know how, you need to somehow break out of your shell and work on your soft skills. My longest post ever. Hope this helps and good luck.
Greengrape, you’re right that I haven’t passed L2 and don’t have an MBA…yet. That’s the next goal for me. Yes, the MBA is more networking and “getting a job” focused, but you can’t deny that there’s value in the classes and case studies as well. But, I’m not here to say MBA> CFA or CFA> MBA. I’m here to say that on the job work experience trumps all, period end of sentence. That I would be best suited (depending on the job) to master excel /access/ powerpoint than study about some topic in the CFA or MBA curriculum that won’t help me too much based on my career goals. And yes, I would say that a top 15 MBA will give you the same financial footing as a CFA given my conversations with my friends at top 10 MBA programs. In the end, no one professor will go through all the details like instructors in the Schweser and Stalla videos. However, the material in the textbooks and course packets is the same (for the majority) and a student can go back to their dorm room or housing and study on their own like the CFA program. It just so happens not everyone in MBA programs does this, because they’re running to some networking event. But, it doesn’t mean the MBA doesn’t provide the same if not more than the CFAI curriculum. In the end, to repeat what others have said including you, it all depends on what you want to do in the finance world. It’s vast and not one degree is king.
Have fun working SS equity research - your hours are absolutely horrible - per hour compensation blows - and no one wants to pay for research anymore so you are strictly a cost and quickly being rendered obsolete Also 50% of everything you say is wrong
5 years of buy side ER/stock picking experience, and I have to say CFA has helped in the following ways: On Getting The Job: 1) I had no finance training, no business school degree. Passing the exams at least proved that I know my $hit 2) The firm was looking at multiple candidates. Hiring managers had time to interview 3~5. Hiring manager’s time is important. Resumes of people not enrolled in the program are thrown out. 3) Eventually talking to the PMs of the firms who were all 20~30 years older than I was. What was the common thing to talk about? “CFA level 2 was as enjoyable as an anal probe.” That broke the ice, extended the interview, and put in a good impression On actually working on the job: 1) Having “, CFA” after your name means sell siders w/o CFA charters that only know how to sell and pitch, and have ZERO credentials valuing the stock will tone down their BS. Bottom line is, the material in the CFA DOES HELP. But I think people on this board felt that they learned that stuff already in school and CFA is just a rehashing of material. It doesn’t matter what do you do, the CFA is way too vast to be applied 100%. In any other day I only use 10~30% of what was in the curriculum, but doesn’t mean that it’s useless. I don’t blame the sell side guys for feeling that CFA is useless, because being on the buy side I know how much of a douche I can be. When we talk to SS guys, we only care about operations of the covered company because most of the financial analysis presented are either dead ass wrong or overly optimistic (for obvious reasons).
kevin0118 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > 1) Having “, CFA” after your name means sell > siders w/o CFA charters that only know how to sell > and pitch, and have ZERO credentials valuing the > stock will tone down their BS. this is my feeling - its a strong brand/membership to have access to. i’m a finance ugrad w/ ib and econ concentrations so the tests are all rehash and become monotonous very fast to me. i love the industry, though, so i want the brand.
mar350 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > kevin0118 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > 1) Having “, CFA” after your name means sell > > siders w/o CFA charters that only know how to > sell > > and pitch, and have ZERO credentials valuing > the > > stock will tone down their BS. > > this is my feeling - its a strong brand/membership > to have access to. i’m a finance ugrad w/ ib and > econ concentrations so the tests are all rehash > and become monotonous very fast to me. i love the > industry, though, so i want the brand. I don’t have the CFA but I’m the valuation guy in my group that can value almost anything thrown at me. I draw my knowledge from my undergrad finance degree. Valuation for me was learned on the job and credentials were built by knowing my sh!t and making good stock calls which incorporates more than just fundamentals. If you have a long investment time horizon, I would say fundamental analysis works most of the time. If you’re fast money with short investment horizon, sentiment trumps all and you can get smoked occasionally if you stick to the intrinsic value that your model spits out. One thing this job has taught me is to get a feel on the movement of “smart money” within my sector, which can lead you to become a good stock picker as you know where to place your bets ahead of consensus. As I move to the Buyside, I personally will rely on SS research for 2 things; access to management/events and to gauge market sentiment. Btw, I know a few SS ER guys with CFA next to their names that are horrible stock pickers. Yes they can speak valuation to the nth degree, but who cares if their dead wrong?
I think I struck a sensitive chord here 
Look its not like the CFA has produced negative value for me. I think you guys are getting way to hung up on the “useless” statement, thinking that I’m saying its useless overall. Yes the CFA helped me get a job. I even saw my resume the first week I got hired on the head of research’s desk with CFA II candidate circled on it. I never said it was completely useless in this aspect. However, looking at it on an opportunity cost basis, I think it would have been a much better idea to learn how to make basic models, find a company and write a sample research report and then call out to several SS and BS shops w/ my research. I’m 100% confident that I could have landed something w/ 1/10th the time I spent doing the CFA. Though this approach is, IMO, much more challenging b/c you face constant rejection, you have to network and most of all you have no direction (no curriculum or structure) to guide you. Frankly, its a pretty intimidating approach, but is vastly more relevant to what you will be doing on a daily basis. My main point was that the CFA really just doesn’t do much for me on the job b/c it was too broad. So again, don’t be so shocked that research isn’t all that impressed w/ your CFA I & II. Yes I plan to take CFAIII b/c I already paid for it and sunk in a couple months before coming to this conclusion. But, honestly, its really hard b/c the material has little value to me. I’d much rather spend my time networking, going to conferences, taking courses that may help my modeling and/or industry knowledge, readings, etc…
hobbes928 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > mar350 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > kevin0118 Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > 1) Having “, CFA” after your name means sell > > > siders w/o CFA charters that only know how to > > sell > > > and pitch, and have ZERO credentials valuing > > the > > > stock will tone down their BS. > > > > this is my feeling - its a strong > brand/membership > > to have access to. i’m a finance ugrad w/ ib > and > > econ concentrations so the tests are all rehash > > and become monotonous very fast to me. i love > the > > industry, though, so i want the brand. > > I don’t have the CFA but I’m the valuation guy in > my group that can value almost anything thrown at > me. I draw my knowledge from my undergrad finance > degree. Valuation for me was learned on the job > and credentials were built by knowing my sh!t and > making good stock calls which incorporates more > than just fundamentals. > > If you have a long investment time horizon, I > would say fundamental analysis works most of the > time. If you’re fast money with short investment > horizon, sentiment trumps all and you can get > smoked occasionally if you stick to the intrinsic > value that your model spits out. > > One thing this job has taught me is to get a feel > on the movement of “smart money” within my sector, > which can lead you to become a good stock picker > as you know where to place your bets ahead of > consensus. > > As I move to the Buyside, I personally will rely > on SS research for 2 things; access to > management/events and to gauge market sentiment. > > Btw, I know a few SS ER guys with CFA next to > their names that are horrible stock pickers. Yes > they can speak valuation to the nth degree, but > who cares if their dead wrong? Had you passed more exams, you wouldn’t make false assumptions that make you sound uneducated like ‘ss ER guys that are charterholders are bad stock pickers’. No one here has said the CFA will make you a better or worse stock picker than someone without, but most studies show CFA can benefit risk management.
The original contention was that branding and attractiveness to employers aside, the actual material contained in the CFA program is not that relevant for the types of jobs people on this forum desire. Now I’m not saying that is false, but doesn’t that really go for MBAs as well?
Being a CFA made me a better stock picker and has allowed me to beat the market historically, which basically guarantees I will beat the market in the future (over a reasonable time horizon, of course)
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Being a CFA made me a better stock picker and has > allowed me to beat the market historically, which > basically guarantees I will beat the market in the > future (over a reasonable time horizon, of course) As indicated by my user name, the C.F.A. allows me to provide SUPERIOR RETURNS to my clients.
SuperiorReturn Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As indicated by my user name, the C.F.A. allows me to provide SUPERIOR RETURNS to my clients. This is a point often missed by new charterholders and candidates - opportunities really open up when you are able to guarantee returns. This alone makes the CFA > MBA (any opinions on which is better otherwise?) Best advice in the thread so far.
LPoulin133 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > SuperiorReturn Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > As indicated by my user name, the C.F.A. allows > me to provide SUPERIOR RETURNS to my clients. > > This is a point often missed by new charterholders > and candidates - opportunities really open up when > you are able to guarantee returns. This alone > makes the CFA > MBA (any opinions on which is > better otherwise?) > > Best advice in the thread so far. Exactly. Who doesnt love free excess guaranteed return? Come august assuming a pass I can’t wait to start guaranteeing shit.
You should just guarantee the pass and put the letters behind your name.