Okay, I have heard this claim from Indian candidates (my presumption here, correct me if I am wrong) that IITs and IIMs are superior (their choice of word not mine) to the top universities in US/UK (Harvard, MIT, Oxford etc.) many times in this forum. So, I want to examine this claim and start a debate on whether it is valid. From what I have seen in this forum (and my conversations with some of my Indian colleagues) the evidence provided to support the argument seems to be as follows: “IIT/IIM have very low acceptance rate (less than 1% seems to be the consensus) compared to 8-20% acceptance rates for Harvard/MIT/Oxford. Since, it is more difficult to get into IIT/IIM than Harvard/MIT/Oxford, they must be superior.” Now, let me examine this argument systematically and point out some of the flaws. Flaw 1) Acceptance rate of less than 1% only tells us that a larger number of people apply to IIT/IIM. This does not say anything about the quality and credentials of these applicants. Since, taking an entrance exam (IIT-JEE, I believe, for the IITs) seems to be all that is needed to be actually considered an applicant to an IIT, counting all the applicants and calculating acceptance rate based on that is seriously flawed. Flaw 2) It does not make any sense to come to a conclusion about an educational institution solely based on acceptance rate. What about the other important factors like facilities, quality of the faculty, diversity of student body, opportunities outside of academics etc etc? Flaw 3) What is the basis of the claim that these institutions provide better education than Harvard/MIT/Oxford? If all you are going by is the fact that the students passed a difficult entrance exam to get it, then you don’t have an argument. Since, to get into Harvard/MIT/Oxford you need to have multitudes of other credentials (like good SAT scores, strong involvement outside of academics, variety of interests etc) on top of solid GPA it seems to me the quality of student body at these institutions will be quite superior to IIT/IIMs. I for one do not want to go to school where all the people around me are egg-heads. And, I am pretty sure that there are many more flaws with the claim (and, I hope some of you guys can point those out). So, it seems to be that this argument about IIT/IIM superiority mainly comes from exaggerated sense of importance that Indian nationals put on the fact that it is difficult to get into these schools. My verdict on the argument: FICTION I am expecting lot of opposing view-points so let the ripping begin 
The thing is acceptance is low…lots of competition to get in, mostly because of few seats and huge population…only the cream of the crop gets in…I could say maybe passing CFA all 3 levels may be easier than the IIT JEE entrance exam interms of competition, infact, there are a number of state entrance exams in India which are tougher than any CFA level exam interms of competition as they are entrace tests… Once you get into an IIT or an IIM…I dont think there is a huge difference between the said western schools and these Indian schools interms of the education imparted to students… One key difference is that you can go to harvard/MIT at 35 to start something… that never/rarely happens at Indian schools… The best of the best companies go there to recruit the intelligent students… Regarding your point: >>Since, to get into Harvard/MIT/Oxford you need to have multitudes of other credentials >>(like good SAT scores, strong involvement outside of academics, variety of interests etc) >>on top of solid GPA it seems to me the quality of student body at these institutions will >>be quite superior to IIT/IIMs. All qualities required are built into the entrance tests themselves and they are least interested in “legally blonde” kinda students… PS: I am an Indian and not an IIT ian.
IIT/IIM grads are like little excitable puppies. Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Oxford grads are the rottweilers who eat those puppies.
Who cares which is superior. How do you define it anyway? Now if you were to ask: given a choice, where would most students rather go to school to get their education, I’d bet that Harvard/Oxford etc would win hands down.
Saj123… Here is a simple fact. All IIT/IIMs combined produce 4,000 or so machines that provide direction to 1.1 billion souls. A ratio of 1 per 275,000 citizens. Top 10 US universities combined produce 120,000 widgets that lead 360 million to the gates of heaven. A ratio of 1 per 2,000 citizens. It is the law of supply and demand.
Which one of those two schools did the richest man in India go for his MBA? Wait, he went to Stanford? Oops. Well, surely his brother, the second richest man in India went to one of the two schools, right? Not unless one is named "Wharton. It appears that the third, fourth (two members of a family are fourth), fifth and sixth do not have MBA’s. Seventh? London Business. 8th, no MBA. 9th? No college degree. 10th is a family, not sure what the various degrees are. 11th has no MBA, but a masters from MIT. 12th, no MBA. This is where I gave up. So much for the “machines” that are providing direction to 1.1 bln souls. The best MBA programs require being global. Being difficult to get into isn’t where it ends. There needs to be more. Not saying they aren’t great schools, but looking down at other elite business schools is, well…
sorry…The richest and second richest men in India had a lot to work with…so their MBAs dont really count… Their father…the late great dhirubhai ambani…hes the gun…He would eat (and probably has eaten) all of rohufish’s ‘rotweilers’ for breakfast every day of his life… But lets forget that for a second… I’ve been to one of the top business schools in India and I would think HBS etc. are probably much much better schools. The only thing the IITs/IIMs have going for themselves is their selection procedure…they get the smartest of the smartest (I am pretty sure most of the IIT/IIM batches are heaps smarter than the Harvard/Stanford ‘rotweilers’) However, I don’t think the infrastructure/faculty etc is as good as international schools…also the networking opportunities in international schools are heaps better. in summary…I would not believe for one second that the IITs/IIMs are better than international universities… however, their selection procedure ensures that the people they get there have higher intrinsic potential than a lot of the ‘rotweilers’…and if both the rotweilers and the puppies were given the exact same education and opportunities…the puppies would be eating the rotweilers for chump change
8%-20% acceptance rate for harvard MIT , oxford?!! as in 20 of 100 applicants get in? i would think its much lower, but i have nothing to back that up
Interstingly, both IITs and IIMs are having a second thoughts about their entrance tests. They seem to end up with a bunch of robots who have merely mastered the system without any ‘raw intelligence’ (their word not mine). I would agree as some of the folks I have seen with an IIT/IIM background seem to be run of the mill stuff. I have seen more intelligent/creative folks elsewhere.
HBS admits about 15% of its applicant pool, but most applicants have already rationalised themselves by making a comparison of their stats with the typical HBS “class profile”. Those that don’t fit the bill, don’t apply. I would imagine it’s a similar case with the rest of the university.
How many Nobel prize winners did their research work at IIT-IIM combined?
mo34 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > How many Nobel prize winners did their research > work at IIT-IIM combined? The same number as mo34 3 for 3 perfects, lol. (j/k - awesome performance man!)
Does it matter?
mo34 wrote: How many Nobel prize winners did their research work at IIT-IIM combined? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IIM is a B-school and IIMA is the toughest B-School to get into in the world according to Economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Management_Ahmedabad Again it doesnt make it the best. IITs are engineering schools and are not really strong in research. A guy from IIT still has to do research in a top US or European school to win a nobel prize. Considering people win nobel prizes in their 50s and 60s and the craze for US universities in India started probably in the mid 1980s, most of these guys would not have reached the “nobel prize winning age”.
batterinram Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > IIM is a B-school and IIMA is the toughest > B-School to get into in the world according to > Economist > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_M > anagement_Ahmedabad > Again it doesnt make it the best. > HBS and UChicago are business schools, they still have many Nobel prize winning economists teaching there. Sharpe is at Stanford Buisness School. Black and Scholes are buisness school professors as well and many others. > IITs are engineering schools and are not really > strong in research. This statement does not make sense. An engineering school can’t be qualified as a top school unless they have a strong research program in one area at least. Bottom line is if you’re accepted at IIT and MIT where woud you go?
this whole discussion is moot. there’s only one fact and everyone here knows it. go take your SAT and GMAT, instead of wasting time thinking about all this. you just get all these indian kids who’re all puffed up because their mommy goes around showing off that ‘my son is an iit/iim grad’, and their matrimonial ads ('cos lets face it, they’re not getting laid unless mommy gets them a bride) are in bold capitals with a border. its good for these kids to get whacked around a bit so they grow up a bit. can we talk about sarah palin now? dang it chad deleted that thread. i didn’t even get the mad lusty democrat post yet commenting on her ahems. there was a juicy hint about french and american leaders getting extra-friendly, taking the relationship (of the nations of course you dirty minds) to the ‘next level’. dang it, we never made it past the seriousness.
rohufish! LOL
mo34 wrote: IITs are engineering schools and are not really > strong in research. This statement does not make sense. An engineering school can’t be qualified as a top school unless they have a strong research program in one area at least. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I never said IITs are top schools, they dont have a good Masters and Phd programs and hence are not strong in research. The real strength of IITs is they get the best brains in India studying in their institutes (because of the selection process). So the real debate is whether the undergraduate students of IIT are better than MIT. This question cannot be answered by comparing the nobel prize winners from the 2 institutes (because of the reasons I mentioned earlier). Look at the list of successful silicon valley entrepreneurs from IIT, the list is impressive. I point this out to show that IITs are not ordinary schools. Top US schools are certainly better than Indian schools, but are top US students better tha students from IIT? I dont know
Adding to my previous post, IITs were the single most important factor in transforming India’s economy from an agrarian one to something that was driven by IT services. People who passed out of IITs started companies (some of them are billion dollar companies) in India and in silicon valley. They created wealth and employment and transformed an economy. Yes they did not win nobel prizes, but made a difference to lives of people, which I think is just as impressive.
rohufish Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > this whole discussion is moot. there’s only one > fact and everyone here knows it. > > go take your SAT and GMAT, instead of wasting time > thinking about all this. > > you just get all these indian kids who’re all > puffed up because their mommy goes around showing > off that ‘my son is an iit/iim grad’, and their > matrimonial ads ('cos lets face it, they’re not > getting laid unless mommy gets them a bride) are > in bold capitals with a border. > > its good for these kids to get whacked around a > bit so they grow up a bit. > > can we talk about sarah palin now? dang it chad > deleted that thread. i didn’t even get the mad > lusty democrat post yet commenting on her ahems. > there was a juicy hint about french and american > leaders getting extra-friendly, taking the > relationship (of the nations of course you dirty > minds) to the ‘next level’. dang it, we never made > it past the seriousness. dude!!! along with SAT and GMAT…take IIT/IIM to check it out whether you all can crack it …then only make all these fuss about these colleges…