Maybe this is a dumb question, but with the Wall Street pay structure so heavily weighted toward bonuses, and cuts certainly on the horizon, do firms let people go to avoid paying them their guaranteed minimum bonus? If so, is there anything the employee can do about it?
It illegal to fire people without a good reason. It is more likely the company would just axe the bonuses… If they cut people, they will lay them off in which case i imagine the severance package would contain a pro rated bonus of some sort. GenY
companies can come up with any reason to get rid of you. no employee is perfect and if a company wanted to, they could come up with some reason to terminate you. firms generally won’t fire you the week before bonuses are paid because it does look bad on the company, but you never know. there were cases at ML, BofA (whose banking division performed pitifully last year), and others this year where people were either let go before bonuses were paid or only received a pittance of a bonus. if they get rid of you, usually they’ll offer you a decent severance package to sort of reflect the amount of work you put in, but it generally won’t be close to what you would have gotten in terms of bonus for a full year. i do know that some of the more senior professionals at BofA and the like have been filing lawsuits concerning the circumstances of their termination, but my background isn’t in law and i don’t know what the terms entail.
GenY Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It illegal to fire people without a good reason. > > > GenY Wrong, Employment at Will. They can fire you for no reason at all
Employment at will implies, “good faith and fair dealing” according to the US court system. Firing someone for “no reason at all” directly violates this tenent. GenY
exactly - even if they didn’t like the shade of pink (or blue, whatever) in your shirt that morning. my wife was illegally terminated several years ago right after returning from our first child. it was blatant discrimination, her colleagues had been told not to talk to her, her desk had been given away before she returned, etc. basically her boss hated her for having her own mind, and not being subservient to him. we had spoken to attorneys and they all said something was fishy but since it was difficult to prove the specific scenarios which would break the law, it would probably be considered at-will termination. its a totally unfair world when it comes to employer-employee relations. keep in mind, you also depend on the mercies of your past bosses and employers for references, etc. so basically, you are severely disadvantaged, no matter what anyone would have you think. plus, filing a suit means getting a reputation as a litigious employee, no matter how right you were and how wrong the company was. i used to be idealistic, and think there are decent companies, etc. but its a bunch of crap. watch out for yourself and yourself alone - the company will dump you in no time if they feel any heat. its all need based. so operate at will from your side as well. keep developing your skills, and keep looking for better options. be loyal if and until it suits you and your plan. sorry for busting the bubble for a lot of the younger ones out there, but this is how it works out there, don’t get taken advantage of. many may yet to have that first experience with the employer, but trust me it will happen to all of you at some stage. FYI i have been with my current company for 6+ years and am doing pretty well with career progression et al. so this is based on careful, considered views.
Gen Y, Your naievety offends me greatly, and I’m just afraid someone may heed your advice. What the hell constitutes a “good reason”? Your a fool, they can fire you if your breath smells. These employers aren’t reading the CFAI ethics. I’m almost at a loss for words for your naievety. My bro was let off just before bonus time a few months ago, so was his boss. I’m sure his performance was lacking a bit, but if they were going to fire him, they wouldn’t have waited until AFTER bonus time.
I think his name says it all “Gen Y” welcome to the real world, we have been waiting for you.
All I did was quote a US court ruling, im not trying to claim life is always fair but I will take facts over heresay any day of the week. I have been laid off myself, my company didnt fire me in fact they gave me a nice severance package and since then i have been offered another, better position within the company. Its funny you are offended by what I am saying, which, mind you was not even my “opinion” yet you under limited pretenses label me the fool… By the way, heed my advice? No advice was offered… GenY
GenY – What “court ruling” did you quote? I didn’t see any. You stated what is abundantly obvious in that employees have recourse for “wrongful termination” but you didn’t recognize what everyone else has mentioned, in that if employers try hard enough to find a reason for your termination, they will find it. Wrongful termination only applies when you’re not provided proper notice of termination, or the grounds for your dismissal breaches one or more terms of your contract, and importantly, the scope of this can vary widely depending on the contract and your jurisdiction. Moreover I think the “facts” point to hundreds of people on Wall Street losing their jobs a week or two before comp time and not getting their bonuses. What the other posters have mentioned above is exactly how things actually work in the industry and in other areas as well.
The current legal precedent was set in 1980 Clearly vs American Airlines I GUARENTEE there will be court cases involved in the recent firing practices. I am nearly positive that Countrywide/BOFA are already under investigation for illegal dismissals. But you are right, bad shit happens all the time, no question, and alot of these asshole will get away with it unfortunately because it is easy to find an excuse to fire someone. My only arguement is that it should be noted that there is legal precedent although it rarely holds up in court. Trust me I am not trying to discredit the stories others have detailed on here. Dealing drugs is illegal… yet people get away with it everyday… hell pharmaceutical companies make it their business!! I never said it doesnt happen, i never said it wont happen again. All i said was that technically it firing must be done in fairness and good faith? Phew, did I talk my way off the firing line yet? 
GenY EDIT: Note, I will not be here for the rest of the evening to defend myself unfortunatly… gotta go to the celtics game… but please continue to recklessly bash me at will
ok, leaving aside the needless hazing this forum tends to degenerate into …sigh…still getting used to it numi you articulate it well. thats what the attorney told us - either you are part of a protected class, in which case, there are, well, protections, for you. or you were wrongfully terminated, but then you have to prove why. other than that, at will (and mercy, i like to add) of employer the bribe, oops, severance they pay you is not out of goodness of heart - its to buy you off so you don’t file suit. in fact usually you have to sign away all your rights in order to receive the severance. think of the severance as a fraction of the ‘expected value’ of legal liabilities, lower the better. attorneys cost the company money so they don’t want to have a doggie (fired poor sod) nipping at their heel. they want to throw a small bone to make the doggie go away. sure, some companies, rare ones, pay extra large bribes just 'cos they’re looking to cut their future recruiting and retention costs. but its still an economic decision mind you.
genY, the point everyone is trying to make is - they don’t even need an excuse. they can fire, 'cos they felt like it that morning. just like that, for fun, for sadism, out of boredom, whatever. you’re fired, ta-ta. ‘at will’
agreed with rohufish…that’s pretty much it. and btw GenY, don’t take anything that’s said here personally…just understand that when it comes to matters of job security, people can get pretty fired up especially with the markets being what they are these days
I think the point is that there are certain reasons that they are not allowed to terminate you for: race, gender, sexual orientation, pregnancy status. However, any non-protected reason is sufficient for termination of an at-will employee, and management is usually careful enough to find one of those reasons if they are trying to terminate you for one of the other ones.
I know a person who was fired at work for smelling bad. I’m not lying.
*Head smacks into desk* This post was pretty funny
Start spraying Dummy… seriously.
Shit happens… the trend tends to be for the management to “set you up” prior to firing you. Any intelligent manager who is determined to rid himself of baggage will no doubt cover his arse beforehand. 1) they will give you a written warning first (on the record), e.g. your performance is not up to scratch 2) they later terminate you citing the previous warning as part of the justification Shit happens, but some firms are pretty fair about things, mainly to avoid litigation or reputational damage. When I was laid off, they gave me an ok severance package with a clause basically giving up my rights to sue them.
What I know is that a number of people at Bank of America in London were paid minimal bonuses (3 months salary or so) and laid off. So the answer to the original poster’s question - if I have understood it correctly - is that “yes, you can get screwed over.” However, a company doing this is probably sending out a strong signal that it does not plan to rebuild in the future (b/c reputation would be tarnished among clients and prospective employees). I think there is a distinction between firing someone (which would require cause) and laying people off (where the cause is typically evident, insofar as the business usually isn’t making hoards of $$$). But I am not a lawyer.