Military pay

The genesis of this thread is the “federal civilian pay vs. private industry pay” discussion being had elsewhere. Admittedly, the military has very different demands than the civilian life, be it government or private. Nonetheless, here’s my view on the military and their pay.

As most of you know, I spent five years in the Marines, most of it in San Antonio, working in a joint-service environment. (That is–I worked closely with the Army, Navy, and Air Force as well.) I spent another five years in San Antonio after I got out. So I base this not-entirely-hypothetical example on what I saw there.

In San Antonio, an E-5 with 4+ years of service with no dependents makes about $54,000 per year. This includes base pay, housing allowance, food allowance, and the tax difference. (Food and housing allowances are not taxed, so you add a “tax difference” to equate it to “normal” pay.) A first-year accountant at a Big-4 firm can expect about the same pay.

It’s very possible (the norm, in fact) to make E-5 around the four-year mark. I knew a great many people who were in their first enlistment that made E-5. And believe it or not–you can make E-5 in any branch of the military just by doing the absolute bare minimum. Just for simplicity, let’s pretend he’s been in for five years.


The 23 year-old accountant has already spent four years in undergrad, another year in his Master’s program, and is currently studying for the CPA exam. He has been without a paycheck for five years, spent about 4,000 hours in class/studying, and still has another 300-ish to go for the CPA exam. His education has probably cost him between $20k and $200k, just in tuition, fees, and books, depending on where he went to school. (This doesn’t include room and board.) He might have up to $50,000 in student loan debt. That’s a $400/month payment every month for the next 30 years. But that’s okay–he’s got a BBA, MPA, and soon, the CPA designation to put behind his name.

The vast majority of military enlisted graduated from high school on Friday and shipped off to boot camp within just a few weeks. Most of them never went to college (beyond what was required and provided by the military), never paid a dime in tuition, and owed zero dollars on their student loans. They spent zero time in a classroom, unless it was required and provided by the military, and they were paid their normal salary to go to class. They have no degree and no professional certifications. (Yet they make the same amount of money as the person who has worked their butt off for five years.)


The accountant has medical insurance that is paid for by his work. (If he’s lucky, that is.) He has a $25 copay every time he goes to the doctor, a $3,000 deductible, 20% coinsurance beyond the deductible, and a maximum $5,000 out-of-pocket expense every year. His prescriptions cost ~$10 to $50, depending on what he’s getting. And if he gets sick, he gets no pay (unless he uses his disability insurance, which he probably pays for out of pocket).

Military people pay ZERO for doctor’s visits. When I say ZERO, I mean ZERO. No copay. No coinsurance. No deductible. No prescription payments. No nothing. And if you’re off work for a month or two or three (for whatever reason–even if it’s not work related), you continue to receive your normal paycheck and allowances.


The accountant probably doesn’t have a defined-benefit pension plan. He might have a 401k (that he paid into). And he has social security (for what that’s worth). He can start taking withdrawals from the 401k at age 60, and can start taking social security at age 65.

Military people also have their pension to look forward to. Granted, not everybody stays in and retires, but those who do put in 20 years can expect to get half a paycheck every month for the rest of their life. Granted, it’s only half of your base pay, not including allowances. But the thought of being 38 years old, doing absolutely nothing and collecting a $2,000 check every month is pretty appealing. (Especially considering that you didn’t have to pay into it.)

I’m too lazy to read the entire thing, but as the landlord to a military family, I was very surprised to see how large their annual housing allowance is. I don’t think that I can agree that members of the active military are overpaid though, as I don’t know how you put a price on living your life knowing and agreeing that at any moment you can be called upon to leave everything behind and face the very real possibiity of being killed, disfigured, or permanently disabled. I realize that’s what members of the military sign-up for, but still. My caveat is that members of the military can’t complain when they actually get the call to go to war.

^I will agree that military members who are forward deployed to a hostile combat zone should get some additional compensation. However, for pogues like me (and most of the people I knew), we sat at a nice, comfy Air Force base in San Antonio. The closest I ever got to war was playing Halo on the XBox.

Greenie and possibly other AFers –

A few months ago in another thread I mentioned this classmate in business school who went to West Point. I incorrectly said he was a US Army officer, when in fact he was a commanding officer before earning his MBA (I’m totally unfamiliar with US military ranks and didn’t know there’s a huge difference between both terms until recently). Anyway, a company I have ties to is trying to fill a position in which high-profile military leadership experience is strongly preferred, so they’d like to see if he’s interested.

By any chance do you know the ballpark compensation numbers for a commanding officer? It’s been more than four years after his graduation and he returned to the military after b-school. My impression is that he won’t consider an offer unless there’s a huge compensation bump given his current career. Any input is appreciated.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/2012MilPay/a/2012basepayofficer.htm

O-1 = 2nd Lt

O-10 = 4 Star General

A “Commanding Officer” isn’t a rank. It’s a billet. That is, it’s a title or job given to somebody for a limited amount of time. All Commanding Officers are commissioned officers, so those two aren’t exclusive.

For example, a Captain (a rank) might be the Commanding Officer (title) of a Company (a group of 200 or so people). A Colonel (rank) might be the CO of a Battalion (2,000 or so people). A General might be the CO of the Marine Corps (200,000 people). So there’s no way to answer your question without knowing what type of unit he commanded.

[Edit - here’s a better example - the Commandant of the Marine Corps is a billet. He will be in charge of the entire USMC for four years. After that, he will go back to doing some other job, such as being an advisor to the Joint Chiefs or something. He is still an officer, and still a General, but he no longer commands a unit.]

Just purely out of speculation; this is in no way a scientific, rigorous analysis - I think it’s difficult to advance past the O-3 rank until you get some kind of advanced, postgraduate degree. (O-1, O-2, and O-3 are all considered “junior” officers, but officers nonetheless.) Maybe he stalled out at O-3, decided to go back to get his MBA, and rejoined so he could move up the ranks. (I don’t know how it works for officers–maybe he got out of the Army completely to go back to school. Maybe he was on temporary assignment to get his MBA. However, it’s hard to believe that they Army would send somebody to school to get an MBA.)

If my speculation is correct, he might be an O-5 by now, and his RMC (regular military compensation) would be about $90-95k. Again–that doesn’t include the 100% free medical care, the option to retire after only 20 years, the intangible “pride and honor” that goes into serving the military, etc. (I never felt the “pride and honor” BS, but it’s really really really important to some people, even after they’ve been out for 50 years.)

Thanks, Palantir and Greenie.

Definitely the firm can go at least 2X that, but yeah you never know how sold the guy is with his current career, and the retirement opportunities are obviously hard to match.

He maintained an active relationship with the Army, although I highly doubt they paid for his education.

^For most career officers, it’s not about the money. It’s about the “intangibles” (whatever that means).

And I’ve never heard of an officer getting an MBA on the military’s dime. One of my old CO’s went to Naval Postgraduate School (think–the love child of HBS and West Point) and got a Master’s in C3 - Command, Control, and Communications. I think that’s the preferred destination for most military officers. (It’s not restricted to the Navy. Officers from all branches, plus many civilian DoD people go to school there.)

What i got from this is that military people are living off the public teet and their pay/benefits should be drastically reduced. deficit solved.

+1 unless their veterans…then you’ve earned it if not more…but I’m pretty sure the majority of the military are not veterans and just chill playing xbox living off our taxes.

You could also argue that veterans receive more benefits than should be appropriate. What mathematical model are veteran’s benefits based on? The thing is that this is another “sacred cow” issue that no one dares bring up - because *of course* veterans deserve the benefits.

^the problem is that there is no direct market mechanism to determine an equilibrium price for military service. it’s de facto determined by fiat, which is of course exploited to the benefit of military personel and a few politicians.

Well presumably veterans put their lives on the line. It depends what value you place on human life.

I am a veteran, and I put my life on the line every day. Actually, twice a day.

In the morning, I drove on Loop 410 in San Antonio to work. And in the evening, I drove back home on Loop 410. That was some pretty scary stuff.


FTR - This is based purely on my opinion and personal experience. There was no mathematical model using advanced algorithms, multiple regressions, or multivariate stochastic calculus involved. (If there even is such a thing as “multivariate stochastic calculus”.)

i don’t pretend to know what that’s worth to society. that’s the whole point, no one person can know. that’s why markets are necessary. the current valuation by congress is arbitrary and i’m guessing it’s used to extract personal benefits for politicians and their interest group at the expense of taxpayers. in fact, i think you can say with certainty that military pay is higher than it otherwise would be because if that weren’t true, then the military special interest would be pushing for pricing that is somehow market-based.

How can you say there is no market component? The military was missing it’s recruitment goals by a decent margin for several years, which would suggest to me that the market of potential recruits was telling them that the compensation was not adequate. If military compensation were cut in half, do you think recruitment wouldn’t suffer?

the demand side is set arbitrarily by someone other than the people paying for the service. that’s not a market.

Although this doesn’t answer Higgs’ question, I must interject something:

This is again conjecture, based on almost no evidence whatsoever. But I believe that the whole purpose of the GI Bill was exactly this–a marketing tool to get more people to join college. And it sounds wonderful! $50,000 for college!

However, I read a statistic not long ago that less than 15% of all enlisted folks ever use a single penny of their GI Bill. How convenient of the government to use a marketing tool, knowing full well that the vast majority would never take advantage of it.

Assuming that’s true, I still don’t know why this is the case. Maybe it’s because most of the people in the military are honestly too dumb to go to college. (Sad but true.) Maybe it’s because people get used to being a government worker, and they get lazy and don’t want to go to college. Maybe it’s because the military makes you stupid. (I certainly think this was true for me.) Maybe it’s because people think, “Well, I’ve spent 4 years in the military, and I don’t need to go to college to get a good job.”

Whatever the case is or was, it’s certainly a good marketing tool for US government. The only other one that’s nearly as good was Top Gun.

where is nana im sure she knows some vets