ohai Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You can’t. Really? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/business/global/05legal.html?_r=3
It’s a good 2 years holiday and no one’s going to ask the “gap” in your resume.
THACHARTER Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Black Swan Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I used to agree with you guys whole-heartedly. > > And I still think that MBA programs could use a > > major revamp. I would like to see something in > > the middle of an MFE and MBA. But what you > guys > > are missing is the soft skills side. For > > instance, throughout the course of a Harvard > MBA, > > students make hundreds of presentations on a > > variety of topics to relatively intelligent > peers > > that will fill similar positions upon > graduation. > > They further develop their professional level > > social and political skills. These soft skills > > are impossibly to quantify, yet the further you > > rise above computational roles in the firm, the > > more obviously important they are. Even > regarding > > analytics, it’s amazing how many times modeled > > risks are misclassified leading to improper > > assumptions. To sum it up: > > > > Not everything that can be counted counts and > not > > everything that counts can be counted. > > > I agree 100%. I passed L1 and 2 of the CFA on the > first tries and sat for L3 this past June where I > knew the material well despite my band 10 failure. > When I started my new job (doing macro research at > a hedge fund) when it was time for me to present > an idea, my lack of experience was as apparent as > could be. I think that unless you come from an > ibanking or similar background, you arent taught a > lot of the skills necessary for a front office > job. There is a huge social aspect to these jobs > that most people dont expect, especially coming > from the BO where you have very little > intereaction with others. Im pursuing an MBA > because of these opportunities ie multiple class > presentations, case studies etc. There are classes > where they specifically teach you to pitch stock > ideas to PM’s. I dont see how the CFA or an MSF > will prepare you for things like this the way an > MBA would. Sure its expensive but if you can get > into a good program, I think there is definitely a > lot of value added from these programs. These are decent reasons for sure. I am considering taking an EMBA at LBS and getting my employer to dib in for at least some of it/make it part of my comp package. The idea of taking a senior management role at any Fortune 500/FTSE 100 company or setting up on my own is quite appealing. Cost is GBP50k/USD 80k. Cost is high but the way I see it is the company gets me for at least 2 years. They will probably put a clause in which says I will need to pay it back if I leave before a specified time period e.g. 4 years. However, the new owners of muddahudda would need to be convinced to take care of that for me. I will ask my boss when I find out who he/she is…and if I still have a future here.
marcus phoenix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ohai Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > > You can’t. > > Really? > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/business/global/ > 05legal.html?_r=3 i could write a macro that could do doc review
Chuckrox8 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > thommo77 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I agree with Peter Thiel that we are in a > higher > > education bubble. University administrators > are > > the equivalent to subprime mortgage brokers, > > enticing young people to take on debt of 100k+ > > marketing this false message that in 20 years > this > > “investment” in human capital will be worth 20x. > > > What a load of crap. > > We are certainly in an educational bubble, I think > less so for the more reputable schools/programs > though. People are racking up 30-50k in student > debt to become masseuses and dental technicians. > Many of these students drop out without any type > of degree/certification yet amass the debt load. > Steve Eisman has a pretty good investment thesis. > > > http://www.valuewalk.com/economic-policy/higher-ed > ucation-bubble/ Damn! Should have listened to myself. Look at Apollo (APOL) this morning. Down 25% today due to Apollo pulling their 2011 forecast, seeing decreased enrollment, and increased government scrutiny. The entire distance learning sector is down 15%+ The American public has finally realized that degrees from these so called schools are completely worthless. It only took 5 years. Congrats America.
bromion Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ohai Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Law school is actually a lot of work. It also > > takes 3 years and is more expensive (though you > > get paid more on average when you graduate). > > More than whom? Not finance guys (MBA or not). Law > school is really overpriced for what it is on a > relative-basis compared to b-school and medical > school. Starting JDs at big firms are pulling like > $110K or something last time I checked, and that’s > after 3 years of opp cost and massive student > loans. Law comp also ramps slower than finance. > > Anyway, there’s really no reason anyone should > ever go to law school. Law is still the only > profession I’ve ever heard of that has support > groups called “Leaving the Law,” which basically > means “I just got jacked by spending all this time > and money for a career I hate that has less upside > than I originally believed.” I mean, I guess if > you actually like arguing with people all day > about asinine details, then law school might be a > good idea, but let’s be real here. 75% of my close > friends from UG with went to law school and > everyone of them hates their life now, 2-3 years > out of law school. No, starting salaries at big law firms on the coasts are in the $170k range. Raises are typically lockstep, which means that everyone in the same class gets a roughly 5-10% raise each year. If you hit the min hours, bonuses are in the $30-60k range, roughly. So basically if you’re not pulling in $250k by year 3, you’re a moron. That’s tough to do with an MBA unless you get a pretty sweet gig.
Here is some pretty comprehensive data on law salaries a buddy sent my way. http://www.alreadybored.com/regions/salaries Natural’s numbers are a bit jacked up according this (particularly bonus #'s), but he is right in the ballpark.
naturallight Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > No, starting salaries at big law firms on the > coasts are in the $170k range. Raises are > typically lockstep, which means that everyone in > the same class gets a roughly 5-10% raise each > year. If you hit the min hours, bonuses are in the > $30-60k range, roughly. > > So basically if you’re not pulling in $250k by > year 3, you’re a moron. That’s tough to do with an > MBA unless you get a pretty sweet gig. I don’t know anyone that made 170 out of the gate from a top 20-30 law school (not top 5 or 10 though, which may be higher), and when I looked into law school circa 2003/2004 the numbers were much lower. Maybe the numbers went up or are dramatically higher for top 5 schools. 250 with 4 years of good experience and a 2 year MBA from a top 5 school is not that unreasonable if you work in finance. Obviously, there is some cyclicality, but an IB / PE / HF job should hit that mark fairly easily in a decent year. Having looked at some jobs recently, I can tell you that an analyst in NYC or other major city with ~5 years of good experience and CFA or MBA can do 250 or higher. The longer you are in finance, the larger the discrepancy vs. law. And if you do the CFA route, you have no debt and no opp cost. Even if law were higher, it’s pretty miserable, and I still wouldn’t want to go into it. That’s subjective obviously, but most law jobs are based around reading extremely boring technical documents and arguing with other smart people all the time, activities that are hard to defend as fun or interesting by any standard. Anyway, if you went into law, congrats, you seem to be doing well by your numbers.
I have a friend who just accepted an offer straight out of law school making 160 plus a pretty sizeable bonus located in Chicago. While being very excited for her, it is still difficult to accept the fact that she is making more than I ever will on an inflation adjusted basis. Meanwhile, I am a CFA charterholder and have my MBA and am still trying to break the 6 figure mark (total comp). Best, TheChad
^ Out of total curiosity. What school did she go to? and What school did you go to? I’m guessing from her comp. alone; she probably went top 5, made law review and graduated top 10%.
skycfa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ^ Out of total curiosity. What school did she go > to? and What school did you go to? > I’m guessing from her comp. alone; she probably > went top 5, made law review and graduated top 10%. You are 100% correct. The main differences between her and I are the choices we made to try to achieve our goals. She went from undergrad to travel for a few years then began school at a top 10 law school. She did not graduate top of her class or make law review, but her network of friends was what ultimately landed the position she was offered. As for me, I went right from undergrad to a second tier school for my MBA while trying to decide what I wanted to do with my life. I decided to pursue the CFA designation to help get me out of the hole I dug for myself early on. Such is life. best, TheChad
I believe most big firms in the biggest cities are still paying first-year associates $160k+. Everyone in a particular class year gets paid the same, though this is changing a bit. Lots of misinformation about the law in this thread. The blog “Above the Law” is a good place to go for insight about this sort of thing if you’re interested.
^ That’s probably true. The Bigger question is: How to get into big firms. Since there are roughly 200 law schools in US, most would not make it. Gee, I’ll almost do anything to get the badge of your school. BTW, good to see you man.
@Thechad: Cheer up. The way I see it, the glamor of MBA and Law schools are just a hype. Less than 10% would make those kind of money and have a glamorous life style. Your friend made it. Good for her. But you’ve got to remember, you are better positioned than most of the people.
the value of an mba depends on the individual circumstance and how much you want to get out of it. if all you cared about in bschool was the grades then it would be a cake. if you are recruiting for the summer internship, interning in your industry of choice, getting involved in clubs and competitions and networking with your classmates (all of which i’m doing), then you’re probably wishing there was more than 24 hours in a day. i find myself more busy and challenged than when i was working before. i’ve worked a small firm my entire career and for me the top reason is bschool opens up more recruiting options. also, in the areas of finance i am targeting, an mba is very much a check the box criteria and i did not want it to preclude me from future advancement or hiring. but what i’ve been most impressed about is the breadth and level of talent around me. this was an insanely difficult year to apply (i got accepted last minute off waitlist) and i very much feel like i’m in the lower quartile of the class which is awesome because ultimately you want to be playing tennis with someone better than you. it is accurate that i have not learned a whole lot of new theory from my core courses after having completing the cfa program. but completing the cfa gave me the background to be able to place out of a couple core courses so i can take more electives in my areas of interest. in the electives is where i will really learn through practice which is infinitely more important (that’s one area the cfa does not offer) from my peers, professors and guest speakers in discussion of experiences. my school is big on bringing in adjunct faculty. next semester i have the opportunity to take courses with the former head of gs equity derivatives and another guy that is the current head of research at a top mutual fund. outside of class, i’m consulting a small for profit education company and plan to get involved in various case and research competitions. if you’re in the right program and for the right reasons, and you do it the right way, i think the price of an mba is justifiable. even better if you can get some company sponsorship or scholarships.
another thing that is a bubble is the URM recruiting.
What Fred said. My take is nearly identical.
MBA + CFA = panty dropper.
As someone currently in the first year at business school, I can tell you that it’s been a pretty eye-opening experience for me from the standpoint of understanding other major dimensions of business, including marketing, strategy, operations, and general tactics for persuasion and leadership. I know that some people on this thread think that an MBA is somehow a waste of time and a major opportunity cost, but also realize that many people who’ve said this haven’t attending business school themselves (or maybe they just know everything already). However, I do agree with people’s assessments in that the value you extract from your business school has a lot to do with the caliber of school you attend, as well as the quality of the peers around you. From my perspective, I do feel that my time in equity research and private equity have seriously sharpened my analytical skills – and I can definitely appreciate why analytical skills are so important to *other* industries when some of my classmates defer to my opinion on a business analysis case. However, there are other classes in strategy and marketing where I can certainly say that I’m not the first person to raise my hand. I think it’s because in finance, we’re often in the position of analyzing *other* people’s business decisions, rather than making our own - and so in that respect, I feel like I’m learning a lot from my classmates. Anyway, business school has definitely been pretty busy so far, with all the classes as well as the litany of speaker events, career panels and company management teams that come visit my school every day. But with that said, my goal of attending business school was to gain exposure to other fields besides finance, and so even though things have been really hectic so far, it’s been worth it for me since it’s an opportunity for me to fully immerse myself in exploring other fields, not to mention that I’m surrounded by peers with similar determination and drive as myself. I think the key thing to remember is that finance isn’t the center of everyone’s universe even if it may be for people on this forum, and for others that are aspiring for positions of leadership and strategy at other firms, the things you learn in business school – particularly in the areas of teamwork and leading people – are some of the most useful things you can learn. That’s what people have told me, and although it’s a bit premature to say for sure that this is how I feel, I’ve definitely enjoyed what I’ve seen and I have no regrets about being back in school right now. Hope that helps - just my two cents.
Glad to hear you are enjoying being back in school, Numi. I agree that after a few years out of undergrad some people get very specialized and focused on finance/accounting/marketing etc. Business school can definitely open doors both career wise and on a more personal scale. It is a chance to step back for 24 months and analyze your own goals as well as get a fresh perspective on life.