“I would be eternally grateful if you wouldn’t mind answering a few questions I had, or shedding any advice/direction for someone in my position. I do not have any work experience in the field, and realize the uphill battle of such.”
This just gives me the impression you aren’t completely clued in. It would just be a further turnoff for someone who has the choice of either going home or spending 30mins of personal time answering basic questions. Again, that’s my impression. Using a line to demonstate you understand something about ER might be a good opener. what that might be is up to you. The intelligent questions come in person, agreed. I tried to provide some basic advice in my original post, I don’t mean it to only apply to the email. Obviously, it’s all personal and a trade off between length and detail. The one thing I’d focus on first is talking to alumni, as opposed to randoms. Just a better success rate. ER in toronto is a small business, don’t burn bridges before you see them.
Yes keep things short and very to the point. I’m very unlikely to read beyond 4-5 sentences.
Once i read your opening line “Hi, I’m xxx, I’m a student etc etc”, I’m half tempted to press delete already, unless you can intrigue me in the next 10 seconds.
I’m curious where you’re getting this vibe from? I came in here simply asking for advice and help. And then I was slapped with insults and 0 advice to go along with that. I’m not sure if you still expected me, as a man, to continue being pleasant and honored to hear from veteran industry professionals, or what? When you finally gave me some quality advice and your time, I thanked you for it, appreciated it, and told you I’d use a lot of it in future emails…
It’s weird to see people pick on someone, with no motive to help, and then criticize their unfavorable reception to that. In my opinion I haven’t been dismissive at all; I’ve merely had questions given contradicting advice. I was genuinely trying to figure out the best path.
I see. I better understand what you mean now, and I agree. I could have shown that I know the industry/job much better without necessarily asking questions. Thanks for the tip.
So far he’s the only analyst I’ve emailed, and although it’s sounding like it may have been a bit desperate, I hope it would not have burned any bridges, as I don’t think it came off as disrespectful or anything. All my previous contacts I’ve done this with have been networked by someone I know, so I agree it’s best to extend my own networks before randomly emailing analysts with no connection to me. I’ll keep trying to work at the email, exhaust my own extended network first, and then maybe attack some more random analysts.
I do have my first interview next week in ER (made a thread about it in here too), so I’m really hoping I can crush it and not have to go through the wait of another opportunity (although that’s probably where the smart money lies…ie. chances of landing job through first industry job interview might be slim…).
Look, I am not trying to pile on here, but 90% of the people who read this message will get the same vibe Bchad got. Your tone is pretty negative man.There are interviewers and industry people who will be openly hostile to you, and see how you react. It’s part of the hazing/fit analysis they do, to see if you have what it takes. Please take our advice, and just try to be humble and eager to learn - lashing out and being passive aggressive will get you blackballed quick. Everyone takes their lumps when they start out, it’s a rite of passage. If you’re taking this personally already, do you really think any bank will let you be a representative of theirs in a big meeting that might get hostile? Growing a thick skin is necessary to stay in this industry. Think about it.
As I said, reach out to the associates, not the analysts. Analysts (are the highest ranking if you didn’t already know) and 95% of the time, won’t have time for stuff like this. I saw your other thread. Work on your technicals and try to understand one of 1) any sector you follow that is similar to the role you’re interviewing for, OR 2) know their sector very well. If you’re lucky there won’t be too many accounting/technical questions. Prepare for those - even if it’s for a junior role, they’re still going to try to test you, and see how you handle yourself. Again, don’t let that negative side of you show.
I’ll add that I wasn’t trying to pick on the OP or haze them. Those who know me here know that that is not my style (though I’ll occasionally stick in an ironic sentence for fun). Itera is our haze-master here, and while his suggestions require a thick skin to read, it is not necessarily bad or unjustified for that reason, his is just generally a harsher and less forgiving approach to things.
I took the OP’s letter and tried to clean it up into something that I felt would work better. Perhaps the fact that I used capitals to mark out the parts I was changing made the OP feel yelled at, and I apologise if that was the effect and it made the OP feel badly treated.
Still, it was a concrete attempt to help the OP which very few other people would have done, and while you may decide it doesn’t suit you, the businesslike way to dismiss it is to say “Thanks for the effort, I’ll incorporate some of those suggestions,” or something like that. Or if you don’t like it at all “Thanks for the effort, but it doesn’t really feel like it fits me.” At the end of the day, I don’t really care if you take my advice or not, but it would be nice to be thanked for having made an effort, and you should definitely take that approach with your interviewers if and when you get any responses.
As for advice on this kind of stuff, you’re going to find that there are lots of opinions and different people have contradictory opinions (put the education first on your resume, put the education last on your resume, etc.). Sort through it and see what works best for you.
I think one key I’d suggest is to use dramatic words (like “suicidal” or “eternally” or even “accolades”) sparingly and to use for impact, not simply for verbal decoration. That is, only use a big word when it is covers one of the most important things you want to say, and not because you feel you haven’t used a big word yet in the sentence you’re writing. I get the sense that college seniors do this in their writing a lot, then come out into the real world and business people find the language overdone and because of it, it makes you sound entitled and demanding or just having little sense of perspective about what is enormous or phenomenal, or amazing, or whatever. This is not a stab at you – I see it all the time in both academic and non-acadmeic contexts and it definitely tends to work against you in non-academic settings.
bchad. bro… this was my response to that post you made…
"To be completely honest, it was more of an informal email, but those are just words I use in every day language… I don’t see them as “expensive” but I suppose that’s up for interpretation. Now “erudite”….you must be broke after using that one
Re: my previous post right above this one - my original email was deemed as too long, would this not be suicidal then? or do you disagree that a longer email isn’t necessarily a big issue…
_ Other than that, thanks for the advice, it’s very much appreciated. I’ll definitely incorporate many of those changes into my email." _
I’m not sure if you missed that post, or what you’re really going on about…
the only instance that I felt badly treated was the first 2 posts in response to me seeking help, and then when I called those responses out I was told I was dismissive of advice as if I’m supposed to come on a message board seeking help, and then bow down to superiors who mock me while providing no help…
mk17: i think there’s a difference between me coming into a thread on AF where there are complete strangers, I get mocked by complete strangers, and I don’t like that/don’t just take it like a chump and keep my mouth shut…vs. me going into a professional interview where I want to work, and handling a dick interviewer… quite a large difference there. my reflection in this thread has zero bearing on whether I can take some hazing/poking fun in a real world situation. that’s quite a leap, imho. nor does it give Charterholders the right to come on these forums and feel they can talk down on inexperienced members simply seeking help and they should just “take it”…b/c well…they aren’t charterholders and don’t know better, blah blah blah. that’s a bully mentality, and i’m not sure why I’m getting lectured for not accepting that treatment, but anyhow…
i know when I pass my Level 3, and become a Charterholder, it won’t pump my ego to go around clowning on Level 1s and 2s who aren’t as experienced as me, and when they don’t like that, say well you guys need to get used to hazing/dick interviewers, so deal with or you won’t make it… sounds a little twisted to me, but whatever makes you feel good.
Dude rent a cement truck - there’s a huge chip on your shoulder.
It’s quite a leap to believe that you can keep this passive aggressive bs in check at work if you can’t even take some online ribbing. Small community in TO. Just saying.
Don’t worry about responding to every post you perceive to be negative. It’s not going to change anything.
The time you took to respond to mk17, you could have been doing something more productive ie. prepping for your interview, networking, studying for the CFA exam etc
I seem to recall you saying that mk17 was the only guy that said anything helpful, which seemed to group me in with the people you were complaining about. I actually don’t care too much whether you take my advice or not, and you don’t have to bow down in gratitude to me, but I did bristle at (real or apparently) being lumped in with people you thought were just trying to give you a hard time and joke around.
If it’s just a misreading of your intent, then my apologies, but it sure sounded that way to me.
As for length, some people want a one sentence email, others want a more thought out but not excessive note. No one approach is going to work with everyone. I can tell you that letters of that length (or thereabouts) got me informational interviews from somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of the people I sent them to (though some of these did require follow-ups and took some time to arrange), and my first “real industry work” came out of someone I wrote to like that. So while some people may prefer a shorter letter, it clearly wasn’t “suicidal” or anything like that.
The one thing I will add is that if you look up something that your target interviewer is known for (quoted in some article, spoke at some meeting, etc.) and throw it in there as the reason they caught your attention, it carries an effect much stronger than telling someone that they are a leader in their industry. It indicates that you aren’t cutting and pasting the same letter to everyone and actually have a reason for choosing that person. In other words, it suggests that they are special and “any old analyst” won’t do.
if you’re going to make the note longer than a sentence or two, the trick is to make the extra sentences about them, not about you. That’s what will get them to read it. People love to read about themselves.
bchad: I copied and posted my direct reply to you. It included very polite and appreciative thank you and I’ll in fact use your advice. you then accused me of not being appreciative enough to you and being dismissive… everything is in the thread if you went back up to check. I did group u in with Stallion initially because u did not offer any help just criticized a word choice of mine and that was all. it wasn’t until I vented about not actually getting any help, that I got some.
"______ - – hope you are well! we are not currently looking for someone but I am glad to provide a few points of feedback/direction.
Analysts look for new associates to be plug and play ready as we don’t have time to train – we are looking for candidates who understand the basic accounting principles along with the ability to build and maintain integrated financial models. If you don’t know how to avoid circular references in models – I would immediately suggest you take the wall street analyst prep course – an online course for financial modelling – also something that stands out on CV’s search for the course on linkedin and you immediately filter out 95% of candidates.
If you want to demonstrate an ability to write reports I might suggest you put together a mock report – avoid the temptation to make it too long – we know within the first two paragraphs where your writing skills are and our clients typically do not read beyond the front page (studies have shown 90% stop on the front page).
It is a brutally tough market to get into – I wish you good luck!
______ ______ "
he also clicked on my linkedin link i left in email, and invited me to connect.
Very nice response from him, with some great advice. Also surprised at the amount of time he spent to give it (even if it was off a template he always uses…".
I thank the ones in this thread that gave me advice and spent time doing so. I think it does go to show however, how you definitely shouldn’t take all advice, even from professionals, as black or white. This was the head analyst of an entire research department at a reputable firm. Taking advice such as, don’t even bother emailing analysts (ie. only associates) will likely end up missing out on all the “nice” analysts who are there for a connection.
