UNBELIEVABLE- Just got a call to set up a phone interview for a SS associate ER position. If anyone has good tips on sell-side interviews let me know. I could potentially have 4 different interviews with 4 different companies next week and I still think there is no chance of landing one of these jobs. Should I get the lack of work experience out of the way right away??
Do they not have your resume to see your work experience? Do you have odor problems? We need to get to the root of the problem… your success rate sucks
No kidding. They have my resume and no odor problems…that I know of
robber07 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > No kidding. They have my resume and no odor problems…that I know of Bad case of tourette’s? Nazi tatoo on your forehead? No teeth? Best of luck, hope things fall into place for you sooner rather than later. Seems like you’ve got a good attitude about it.
You will understand the value of work experience after 1/2/3 years of work experience (after understanding how much of “college knowledge and GPA” do you actually use in real life). It is not surprising, that employers prefer experienced hires…
The experience thing in finance drives me crazy too. People that do not have that exact exp may actually work hard and turn out as a better employee, these jobs are not rocket science!! I’ve been out of school for close to 5 years and do not like what I am doing now but unfortunately coming out of college everyone wanted that 1 or 2 years experience so I took a job that I gave me some good skills. Figured after 2 years I could get a better job but I got screwed like everyone else and there were no jobs for 2 years even though I kept mine so now that hiring is picking up I’m starting to get call backs but everyone wants someone who has the exact exp they are looking to hire for which is super annoying since I have my CFA, good undergrad, advanced to a VP, and solid skills. So to make a subtle career move in the 4-5 yrs experience has been difficult. So I decided I’m ok starting out as an analyst/associate (1-3 yrs exp) and taking a pay cut for a good opp but now the problem is that everyone thinks I’m overqualified or make too much money even though I tell them I am not. I feel like I’m in job hell. You have to keep trying though, all these interviews I imagine you have to be learning something so keep at it.
Gotta make good career moves - just part of the game.
Experience is definitely a good thing, but it is frustrating when people tell you that you can’t possibly understand how to be a bottle washer, because your experience is only as a dishwasher. A lot of experience (professionalism, how to get things done, how markets generally behave, how to make a good presentation, etc.) are transferrable.
I feel for people in this predicament, I really do, but you have to look at the perspective of the person on the other side of the table. Imagine you are a few years into your career and finally have that M3 you always wanted, but the factory covered maintenance period has just run out and you need to have your car serviced. The BMW dealer is too far away and/or too expensive, so you decide to go independent and there are two local guys. Guy 1 just graduated at the top of his class from the BMW Service Academy and charges $125/hour. Guy 2 graduated near the top of his class from the BMW Service Academy two years ago and had been working at a BMW dealership for those two years until the dealership had to cut costs and let him go. He also charges $125/hour. Who are you going to pick to work on your car? I’m sure there will be a few folks who honestly want to give Guy 1 a break and will pick him, but the vast majority of folks are going to pick Guy 2. Eventually, Guy 2 will get busy enough that he’ll decide to bump his rate and the choice between Guy 1 and Guy 2 will become harder. Until that time though, Guy 2 is unfortunately SOL.
How about offering Guy 1 $50/hour and telling Guy 2 that you can only pay him $75/hour. Then you get two guys for $125/hour and can wash twice as many BMW windows with all those skills for the same price.
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > How about offering Guy 1 $50/hour and telling Guy > 2 that you can only pay him $75/hour. Then you > get two guys for $125/hour and can wash twice as > many BMW windows with all those skills for the > same price. +10.
The real thing that gets me frustrated about the “we won’t even talk to you because you don’t have experience in doing XYZ,” is that once I finally did get someone to give me a chance, I realize how many “experienced” people are actually prisoners to their experience. It seems that, very often, “experience” seems to mean that “we do things this way because that’s the way we’ve always done it, and it’s just too inconvenient to figure out if this is the best or most reasonable way to do it, like most businesses need to do.” Our crappy way of doing things is sooo ridiculous that only people who have been doing similarly crappy stuff can possibly perform this job. I’ve had colleagues come to me and tell me “you have to remove this slide from the presentation, because clients don’t ever want to see that. Clearly, you have no experience at this.” Then, two weeks later, I get “Hey, you know when you made that slide that showed X; we really need to have that in the presentation.” Just last week, I heard “These guys were blown away by your work showing our tracking error, and it made our stuff really stand out among the competition.” Sure, I didn’t have experience; but it turned out I knew how to do the analysis and get the points across better than the experienced people did. That’s because I actually know how to THINK. Hundreds of thousands of dollars paying people and all they do is make sure that everything is in Arial font, in between their visits to facebook and amazon.com, and these people can’t even figure out how to make a compelling argument to sell their product. Yet these guys go to the front of the line because they are experienced at producing high-priced cr@p. And if some clod hired them in the past, well, they must be good, even though they’re looking for a job now. Pure herding behavior. Anything to avoid having a manager have to think for oneself. It’s effin frustrating when I remember all the times that people told me I was unemployable because I have no experience in producing the cr@p senseless sh!t that passes for a $250k + bonus production, research, or management. MBAs who are crap managers and can’t put together a project plan or prioritize stuff to save their a$$es, or even communicate what it is that they expect their subordinates to do. They can’t even see talent (even inexpensive talent) when it’s f-ing in front of their faces. All they can think is: “if it was really a $20 bill, someone else would have already picked it up, so I don’t want to risk looking silly by even bothering to check.” It took 4 years of having doors slammed in my face again and again, by stupid people, for stupid reasons, to finally make a break, and yeah, when I think about the overpaid, self-congratulatory, self-satisfied people who are the gate keepers, just making sh!t up to cover their laziness and incompetence, and how those years of my life are gone, several spent in quiet desperation, self-doubt, and not recoverable, I do get angry and need to vent. (There, I said it. JDV once said he wanted me to go off and get angry at some point - though I think he wanted to see me to tear someone on AF a new one, which is just not my way.) It would be one thing if they simply 'fessed up and said “you know, I was lucky, and now I make this ton of money. And I just feel like hiring people that look and feel just like me.” It would still suck, but at least it wouldn’t be hypocritical. But they seem to think “all this money means I must be really really good, and if someone hasn’t had the exact same experience as me in the exact same way that I did, they’re clearly not able to make my business more profitable.” My current colleagues, to their great credit, no longer tell me that I’m not experienced enough to add value, and now - if I produce something they don’t immediately want - say “let’s take that out now, but save it, because we might need it later.” And more often than not, they come back for it later. Or they come and say “hey, can you see what happens if we do X to the product,” and I often tell them “Oh, I looked at that a while back, and here’s what I found.” But it took years to find someone willing to give me a chance. So keep looking, folks!
wow bchad that was full of anger haha. But I do agree with most of what you’re saying.
Well, it was humiliating before I got to see what people mean by “experience.” Now that I’m on the other side and see who those experienced people are, it’s just infuriating to learn how short-sighted my interviewers were and how lame that excuse was in my case (at least for most things; there are certain things where experience means you bring a deep professional or client network with you, and that is hard to substitute).
Apparently bchad already has a good preface for his book. What happened with it, dr.? We still want a signed copy when published.
Experience isn’t just a big deal, it’s the ONLY deal.
On bchad’s point, it’s funny how luck works. It is of course funny only after you land a nice gig. Unfortunately luck often has way more influence on the outcome a job opportunity than most of us know or would like to admit. Years ago there was a company I could have chopped my right hand (left handed here) to get in, the firm A. It was my dream job at the time. Months after I left my job to go back to school, my former boss told me: “you know IEV, last year big boss at firm A asked us if it was okay to hire you, but we told him that at that point it would be a problem, so they passed on you. However, you should call them after business school.” I was like “Whaaaaaat?!?! Here’s a crazy idea, why you guys didn’t just ask ME instead of decide on my future?!?!” Two MDs talking maybe less than two minutes is all it takes; probably the least important thing of that day. Later I realized that that’s often how the game is played. Now I’ve been part of the same arbitrary decision processes on somebody else’s career, and I’m sure it’s now being played on me. Funny, isn’t it?
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The real thing that gets me frustrated about the > “we won’t even talk to you because you don’t have > experience in doing XYZ,” is that once I finally > did get someone to give me a chance, I realize how > many “experienced” people are actually prisoners > to their experience. It seems that, very often, > “experience” seems to mean that “we do things this > way because that’s the way we’ve always done it, > and it’s just too inconvenient to figure out if > this is the best or most reasonable way to do it, > like most businesses need to do.” Our crappy way > of doing things is sooo ridiculous that only > people who have been doing similarly crappy stuff > can possibly perform this job. > > I’ve had colleagues come to me and tell me “you > have to remove this slide from the presentation, > because clients don’t ever want to see that. > Clearly, you have no experience at this.” Then, > two weeks later, I get “Hey, you know when you > made that slide that showed X; we really need to > have that in the presentation.” Just last week, I > heard “These guys were blown away by your work > showing our tracking error, and it made our stuff > really stand out among the competition.” > > Sure, I didn’t have experience; but it turned out > I knew how to do the analysis and get the points > across better than the experienced people did. > That’s because I actually know how to THINK. > Hundreds of thousands of dollars paying people and > all they do is make sure that everything is in > Arial font, in between their visits to facebook > and amazon.com, and these people can’t even figure > out how to make a compelling argument to sell > their product. Yet these guys go to the front of > the line because they are experienced at producing > high-priced cr@p. And if some clod hired them in > the past, well, they must be good, even though > they’re looking for a job now. Pure herding > behavior. Anything to avoid having a manager have > to think for oneself. > > It’s effin frustrating when I remember all the > times that people told me I was unemployable > because I have no experience in producing the cr@p > senseless sh!t that passes for a $250k + bonus > production, research, or management. MBAs who are > crap managers and can’t put together a project > plan or prioritize stuff to save their a$$es, or > even communicate what it is that they expect their > subordinates to do. They can’t even see talent > (even inexpensive talent) when it’s f-ing in front > of their faces. All they can think is: “if it was > really a $20 bill, someone else would have already > picked it up, so I don’t want to risk looking > silly by even bothering to check.” It took 4 > years of having doors slammed in my face again and > again, by stupid people, for stupid reasons, to > finally make a break, and yeah, when I think about > the overpaid, self-congratulatory, self-satisfied > people who are the gate keepers, just making sh!t > up to cover their laziness and incompetence, and > how those years of my life are gone, several spent > in quiet desperation, self-doubt, and not > recoverable, I do get angry and need to vent. > > (There, I said it. JDV once said he wanted me to > go off and get angry at some point - though I > think he wanted to see me to tear someone on AF a > new one, which is just not my way.) > > It would be one thing if they simply 'fessed up > and said “you know, I was lucky, and now I make > this ton of money. And I just feel like hiring > people that look and feel just like me.” It would > still suck, but at least it wouldn’t be > hypocritical. But they seem to think “all this > money means I must be really really good, and if > someone hasn’t had the exact same experience as me > in the exact same way that I did, they’re clearly > not able to make my business more profitable.” > > My current colleagues, to their great credit, no > longer tell me that I’m not experienced enough to > add value, and now - if I produce something they > don’t immediately want - say “let’s take that out > now, but save it, because we might need it later.” > And more often than not, they come back for it > later. Or they come and say “hey, can you see > what happens if we do X to the product,” and I > often tell them “Oh, I looked at that a while > back, and here’s what I found.” But it took years > to find someone willing to give me a chance. So > keep looking, folks! You very clearly articulate the same feeling of desperation and hopelessness that I experience day to day. My only hope is that some time in the future I am granted the opportunity to show that I am as capable as I know I am.
bodhisattva Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > bchadwick Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > The real thing that gets me frustrated about > the > > “we won’t even talk to you because you don’t > have > > experience in doing XYZ,” is that once I > finally > > did get someone to give me a chance, I realize > how > > many “experienced” people are actually > prisoners > > to their experience. It seems that, very > often, > > “experience” seems to mean that “we do things > this > > way because that’s the way we’ve always done > it, > > and it’s just too inconvenient to figure out if > > this is the best or most reasonable way to do > it, > > like most businesses need to do.” Our crappy > way > > of doing things is sooo ridiculous that only > > people who have been doing similarly crappy > stuff > > can possibly perform this job. > > > > I’ve had colleagues come to me and tell me “you > > have to remove this slide from the > presentation, > > because clients don’t ever want to see that. > > Clearly, you have no experience at this.” > Then, > > two weeks later, I get “Hey, you know when you > > made that slide that showed X; we really need > to > > have that in the presentation.” Just last week, > I > > heard “These guys were blown away by your work > > showing our tracking error, and it made our > stuff > > really stand out among the competition.” > > > > Sure, I didn’t have experience; but it turned > out > > I knew how to do the analysis and get the > points > > across better than the experienced people did. > > That’s because I actually know how to THINK. > > Hundreds of thousands of dollars paying people > and > > all they do is make sure that everything is in > > Arial font, in between their visits to facebook > > and amazon.com, and these people can’t even > figure > > out how to make a compelling argument to sell > > their product. Yet these guys go to the front > of > > the line because they are experienced at > producing > > high-priced cr@p. And if some clod hired them > in > > the past, well, they must be good, even though > > they’re looking for a job now. Pure herding > > behavior. Anything to avoid having a manager > have > > to think for oneself. > > > > It’s effin frustrating when I remember all the > > times that people told me I was unemployable > > because I have no experience in producing the > cr@p > > senseless sh!t that passes for a $250k + bonus > > production, research, or management. MBAs who > are > > crap managers and can’t put together a project > > plan or prioritize stuff to save their a$$es, > or > > even communicate what it is that they expect > their > > subordinates to do. They can’t even see talent > > (even inexpensive talent) when it’s f-ing in > front > > of their faces. All they can think is: “if it > was > > really a $20 bill, someone else would have > already > > picked it up, so I don’t want to risk looking > > silly by even bothering to check.” It took 4 > > years of having doors slammed in my face again > and > > again, by stupid people, for stupid reasons, to > > finally make a break, and yeah, when I think > about > > the overpaid, self-congratulatory, > self-satisfied > > people who are the gate keepers, just making > sh!t > > up to cover their laziness and incompetence, > and > > how those years of my life are gone, several > spent > > in quiet desperation, self-doubt, and not > > recoverable, I do get angry and need to vent. > > > > (There, I said it. JDV once said he wanted me > to > > go off and get angry at some point - though I > > think he wanted to see me to tear someone on AF > a > > new one, which is just not my way.) > > > > It would be one thing if they simply 'fessed up > > and said “you know, I was lucky, and now I make > > this ton of money. And I just feel like hiring > > people that look and feel just like me.” It > would > > still suck, but at least it wouldn’t be > > hypocritical. But they seem to think “all this > > money means I must be really really good, and > if > > someone hasn’t had the exact same experience as > me > > in the exact same way that I did, they’re > clearly > > not able to make my business more profitable.” > > > > My current colleagues, to their great credit, > no > > longer tell me that I’m not experienced enough > to > > add value, and now - if I produce something > they > > don’t immediately want - say “let’s take that > out > > now, but save it, because we might need it > later.” > > And more often than not, they come back for it > > later. Or they come and say “hey, can you see > > what happens if we do X to the product,” and I > > often tell them “Oh, I looked at that a while > > back, and here’s what I found.” But it took > years > > to find someone willing to give me a chance. > So > > keep looking, folks! > > > You very clearly articulate the same feeling of > desperation and hopelessness that I experience day > to day. > > My only hope is that some time in the future I am > granted the opportunity to show that I am as > capable as I know I am. These are two of the best post’s Ive read here. BChad is an excellent communicator of how the corporate hiring and interviewing process blows.
bchadwick- post of the year. You summarize it beautifully!