bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Hundreds of thousands of dollars paying people and > all they do is make sure that everything is in > Arial font, in between their visits to facebook > and amazon.com, and these people can’t even figure > out how to make a compelling argument to sell > their product. Yet these guys go to the front of > the line because they are experienced at producing > high-priced cr@p. > MBAs who are > crap managers and can’t put together a project > plan or prioritize stuff to save their a$$es, or > even communicate what it is that they expect their > subordinates to do. They can’t even see talent > But it took years > to find someone willing to give me a chance. So > keep looking, folks! Agree with all these points. I think the third one is especially important. If you’re someone who thinks they can actually add value and not just shine a turd without recognizing it’s a turd, make sure you work for someone who will let you have a voice. At my recent interviews (now job) I stressed that point over and over again - I need to be able to voice if I think something should be different, need to be told I’m wrong, and need to be able to tell others they’re wrong. It worked so far. It will still take time to build credibility, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and eventually it will be like it was at my previous job - having a reputation as someone with a straight forward valued opinion
Along the lines of what Bchad said, I can’t tell you how many times I was rejected or passed over by self important middle management hiring for entry level after undergrad. Each spoke with a condescending tone and made their role sound very important and highlighted how only the best of the best would fit. I was completely and utterly dumbfounded when I started my first job and realized within a month that I could train a monkey to do the work. Not only that, but for all the emphasis put on my undergrad performance or lack thereof, I really feel that you could build better employees by taking disciplined self-driven people straight from high school and training them in the field. I do see the merits in having experience, for sure. Someone with good experience at another firm will bring a ton of skill sets that may take a year or more to develop as well as methodologies from competitors that you may be able to integrate. But at the entry level, hiring managers are clearly too picky and looking at all the wrong things. Being ivy league in undergrad is not that individual’s accomplishment, but rather the youth’s parents as they groomed the person for candidacy at a top school and laid out the path. This says good things, though, that they know how to follow simple orders without questioning and work tirelessly as well as mindlessly. Great attributes for an entry level employee. The problem is, that entry level employees tend to become management at some point, and these are very bad traits for management.
I agree that most of the traits of admittees of Ivy League (or otherwise top tier universities) are due to parental influence. However, I don’t think “mindlessly” following instructions is a fair representation of these traits for all such people. It takes a lot of maturity, talent and work ethic to succeed at these places.
ohai Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I agree that most of the traits of admittees of > Ivy League (or otherwise top tier universities) > are due to parental influence. However, I don’t > think “mindlessly” following instructions is a > fair representation of these traits for all such > people. It takes a lot of maturity, talent and > work ethic to succeed at these places. I agree. Getting there is a matter of both luck and hard work, no matter how you cut it. Staying there does require a fair amount of discipline, and the internal competition does weed out the “round-peg, round-hole; square-peg, square-hole” mentality. I’m surprised at the reaction to my long earlier post. Sometimes it helps, I guess, to have someone just come out be willing to call a spade a spade.
Black Swan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Being ivy league in undergrad is not that individual’s accomplishment, > but rather the youth’s parents’ False and unproductive. So, Tiger was never a good golfer it was his dad grooming him? Or, did he start being a good golfer at some point, maybe after he won his first major? Here is the trajectory of what you are saying: It is Steve’s parents’ great accomplishment that he attended Yarford, an institution at which he was exposed to peers and professors that allowed him entrance to a premier Phd program and to later win the Nobel Prize. Is the prize Steve’s parents’, then? Or maybe it is Yarford’s because that was the institution that influenced Steve the most prior to the Phd program. Or maybe it is the Phd program’s. It’s all just an abstraction of nature versus nurture, and let’s avoid going down that rabbit hole.
Well, it definitely helps to have talent and to spontaneously develop other good characteristics. However, we would be foolish to say that parents don’t have a significant influence on their children’s academic success. When you have kids, are you going to let them live in a dog house, or are you going to help with their homework, encourage them to join activities, and other stuff like that?
^^^Ok, so it is more impressive if somebody gets into Harvard after undergoing systematic misfortunes of birth and circumstance compared to a wealthy person who went to all of the right schools? Of course this is true. That is the reason why the argument is false: there are people who did not attend the best schools or were not “groomed” by their parents that get into Ivies, actually a pretty large amount. I think the current president is probably an example. The reason it is unproductive is because you cannot compare everyone’s entire history, only their resume. Therefore it is more efficient to judge the accomplishments therein as belonging to the person whose name is at the top of the resume.
brain_wash_your_face Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think the current president is probably an example. actually his mom woke him up at 4am everyday to go over homework and math problems… iveys look for outliers in many different senses
These discussions are like the MBA vs. CFA discussion - they can go on forever, both sides can make valid points, and there is no right/wrong. IMO, much of the frustration comes from people saying “Well, I didn’t attend XYZ Ivy so that precludes me from getting a job at this BB institution and that’s not fair because I’m as talented/more so than those students”. Regardless of whether that’s true or not, the question should be is the ambition to get a job at BB institution or something else (work, money, freedom, etc.). People often mistake the prestige of a job as an end unto itself, when in fact that job is probably the means to an end - and prestige doesn’t pay the bills. People need to do what’s right for them, be it an MBA or a CFA, the difficulty lies in determining what that is as I don’t think most people know what they want and more importantly how to get it. -My 2lbs of BS
“Not that I think I am a seasoned veteran, but what is the difference between taking an advanced course load while working an internship and studying for, and passing Level I of the CFA exam, and someone that has worked a full-time job for a year.” think highly of yourself much…obviously the course load isnt “advanced” enough!!!
mar350 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > actually his mom woke him up at 4am everyday to go > over homework and math problems… Okay, but single mother could be viewed as a negative in the “grooming” department. Whatever. I just think it is silly to say that everyone at an Ivy deserves no credit because the credit is all their parents’. I know I don’t feel that way. Hopefully we can at least agree that giving all credit to parents is not the right thing to do.
builders Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > “Not that I think I am a seasoned veteran, but > what is the difference between taking an advanced > course load while working an internship and > studying for, and passing Level I of the CFA exam, > and someone that has worked a full-time job for a > year.” One got paid and has experience while the other is still in college?
Doesn’t the name of your school only matter for the first job? I thought once you pass the entry level stage, your experience is more important…
I wouldn’t say it *doesn’t* matter. Certainly, as you get older, which school you went to matters less, but I don’t think it ever ceases to matter at all. Plus, if there is a causative relationship between your school and the quality of your first job, then it affects the rest of your career indirectly.
School gets you in the door, then you can sink, swim or tread water.
My take on it is that your school is most important just after you graduate, since it’s essentially your “most recent job.” Early in your career, it continues to be important, showing that how you have ranked in a competitive endeavor that everyone goes through. Later in your career, you lead with your experience and most recent accomplishments, but your school can be something that gives a boost to your attractiveness. And there are times when bringing out a good school can still add an extra boost to your resume or interview and make the difference between the “almost good enough pile,” and “let’s talk to them” pile.
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My take on it is that your school is most > important just after you graduate, since it’s > essentially your “most recent job.” Early in your > career, it continues to be important, showing that > how you have ranked in a competitive endeavor that > everyone goes through. > > Later in your career, you lead with your > experience and most recent accomplishments, but > your school can be something that gives a boost to > your attractiveness. And there are times when > bringing out a good school can still add an extra > boost to your resume or interview and make the > difference between the “almost good enough pile,” > and “let’s talk to them” pile. I’m in the industry and totally agree with this. Why go to a top school? 1) its an achievement that will follow you for a lifetime 2) chances of landed your dream job are relatively much higher 3) networking opportunities with alums - top schools have much more successful alums you may meet in the industry Now when you get to the top positions, performance of course is much more important. If some kid from NYU can consistently beat and make more money than the CFA/Harvard MBA grad, obviously there’s no hard decision who to pick. But you can certainly bet the guy with the prestigious degree is going to make good money with a good career somewhere. It’s that degree of security that makes it worthwhile
Coming out of good schools (ivy) will open many doors. What you do in there depends on you. But if you went to an Ivy League school in the first place, it means that you have great work ethics and high tolerance for BS. In almost anything, the person that puts in lots of hours and effort into it will become quite good at that activity. People from Ivy are disciplined and hard workers, so when they start work, most likely they will work hard and strive for excellence. Can’t really say that Ivy undergrads are the result of their parents pushing them or whatever. Let’s not generalize. I don’t know about some people here that are negative or critical of ivy leagues but I would love to go back in time and go to an Ivy league school. I probably wouldn’t be studying for the CFA right now… I’ll be studying for GMAT then maybe CFA if I want go into asset management.
I suppose it also makes people subconsciously take you more seriously. After 10 yrs exp, maybe a brand name on the resume may still carry weight.
I think it’s brand name and also the alumni connections. I mean if I look at JP Morgan or BNY asset management guys that are high up in the department, I rarely see anyone from a no name school. More likely than not, those guys are from very well known and elite schools. Not to mention most of them also have MBAs from elite schools. You rarely see someone from say San Franciso University or Iowa State or from similar schools being up there. It is possible but I’m just saying the chances are stacked against them.