buddham Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > I have met my fair share of Indians who complain > about IITians with gusto; most of them failed to > make it to IITs. They want to privatize IIT and > talk about brain drain. In this global economy, I > think IIT has done a lot more from outside India > than they could have done by being in India. I > just do not understand the privatizing of IIT > argument. There are hundreds of private > engineering colleges in India. Again, most of > these folks are “Sour grapes” kind. Huh? so privatising tech educational institutes is a bad thing now? unless you are of socialist disposition, I cant see how you can argue that the funds of Indian taxpayers should be funding the higher education of a few. Whats sour grapes got to do with it. if you have any concept of free markets and competition you’ll realise why getting the govt out of the IITs will set the free and make them real top class insitutions. here’s a hint: the ISB was in the top 20 B schools recently , ever heard of the IIMs even coming close?. theres a huge opportunity socialists in India will like to give a go by to satisfy their odious ideologies. MITs and Stanfords of the world are not govt behemoths -they are shining precisely because the govt keeps off them. I am simply arguing for free markets and the govt paying attention to what it should do (basic education and health) . The IITs will be run better as private organizations. Let us see what reasons make you believe that some arbitrary undersecretary of education has the competence to run these institutions?. btw, i know for a fact that iitb had to delay payments to facultycouple of months back because some babu had not “released” adequate funds.
CareerChange Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > cfa_mba_caia Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > IT industry today in India is a direct product > of > > IITs and IISc. > > > > TCS and Infosys and the likes used to hire > > exclusively from IITs and IISc, twenty years > ago. > > > > Infact TCS/Infosys was a hub for IIT folks… > As > > the industry exploded, they relaxed their > hiring > > standards and now it is a open for all club. > > I have worked at Infosys for more than a decade > and this statement is not true. Do you have any > data to prove this to be true? well its kind of true till the mid 80s.precisely because there werent many other colleges around producing so many engineers -nor was there any large demand for them.
Infy started in 1981, and they probably did not hire their 100th employee till the late 80s. There were less than 500 till the mid 90s. This year they may close with 100,000+. But for those IITian miracle workers 100,000+ would have been a dream?
CareerChange Wrote: > I have worked at Infosys for more than a decade > and this statement is not true. Do you have any > data to prove this to be true? TCS was founded in 1968, the first major IT company out of India. Between 1968 and 1993 (the first 25 years), it primarily hired from IITs and IISc at a salary of Rs 3,500 per month. It is a known fact. In 1993, TCS had 2500 staff, almost all from IITs and IISc. Then the whole thing exploded, copycats like infosys and Wipro entered market in 1981 and 1980 respectively and picked up in early 90s. Now TCS has 116,000 employess (40 times), Infosys has 94,000 employees. Obviously IITs/IISc did not have numbers to feed this commoditized IT market. By early to mid 90s Infosys/TCS/Wipro lost their charm on IIT campuses and no one worth salt wanted to join these firms. I was coordinating with IITs in late 80s/early 90s, so I know this information. If you say you joined Infosys last decade, it means you joined 25 years after the industry was created by TCS and the road was paved by IITs/IISc. If not for the contribution of IITs and IISc, companies like TCS would not have been successful in the 70s/80s. There was no one else at that time in India. Let’s give credit when it is due.
whats the argument here?.that the IT business in India was staffed by alumni from the IITs prior to the boom?. i dont think it can be disputed. but they IITs/IITians had only a marginal role in the “boom” phenomenon at the inflexion point . the explosion and increase in scale was not because IITians started getting produced in large numbers. the boom democratised the whole scheme of things because the HR departments opened up to the fact that anyone could do this. there was no particular need of IITians for business as usual. IITians worked with these IT companies in the early days -no doubt - but which other college graduated any decent amount of engineers at that time ? the ones who were present (IITs) did the job just as the many others from other colleges ,today, continue to do.
Dsylexic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > here’s a hint: the ISB was in the top 20 B schools > recently , ever heard of the IIMs even coming > close?. theres a huge opportunity socialists in > India will like to give a go by to satisfy their > odious ideologies. MITs and Stanfords of the world > are not govt behemoths -they are shining precisely > because the govt keeps off them. > So, who is stopping private enterprises from setting up engineering colleges better than the IIT system? As for socialist/capitalist system, you should look at things in the context of India. I also have studied demand and supply, but these curves work with lots of assumptions that are absent in India. But it will come and your wish for privatization will happen. Without doing a proper cost and benefit analysis of IITs/IIMs, a mindless privatization won’t do anything. As for ISB’ ranking, I thought IIM’s are beyond ranking:-). I do not buy that ISB has better students than IIMs. By the way, What percentage of Indians can afford ISB?
you want to know who is stopping private enterprises from setting up engineering colleges that are better than IITs?. its your friendly AICTE.- the ISB and CFAI btw,think the AICTE needs to curl up and die. explain to me why it is not mindless to misuse scarce taxpayer money towards something the private sector can do better. uh oh.and the IIMs have better students because they are run by the govt?. you are twisting my words here.why compare the students when the debate is about the institutions.the students at B schools are interested in the networking and placement opportunities and it shouldnt surprise anyone that IIMs are still prefered by students because of their excellent alumni network and good placements. but which is a better institution?. ISB,easily. AICTE shouldnt even exist.it promotes mediocrity and corruption and has not added any value to India at all. the debate in india is so hopelessly leftist and socialist that it easily distrusts freedom and free markets as if they were bizzare ideas. “how many indians can afford ISB?”. You really think that those who attend IIMs/ISB cant get a loan from the banks?. any bank worth its salt would salivate at the thought of lending to any IIM /ISB student. question remains why should the tax paid by me have to fund your education? It is amazing if you think that your higher level management education should be paid for by taxes paid by my driver. (ok. i dont have a driver -its a metaphor )
Dsylexic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > question remains why should the > tax paid by me have to fund your education? > It is amazing if you think that your higher level > management education should be paid for by taxes > paid by my driver. (ok. i dont have a driver -its > a metaphor ) Well, who is stopping any of the tax payer from getting the higher level management education at IIM? Again, IIT and IIMs are not cost/walfare/waste centers. If US believed in your total worship of supply and demand curves, they would see their investment in the state schools and NSF as a waste of tax payer’s dollars. My favorite UCB with Berkelium would not be there.
once again, can you justify taxing your driver to pay for YOUR higher education?. if not -it is the definition of a welfare program. only it is welfare for those who dont need it. its difficult to argue with those who consider that the govt should indulge in such redistribution of benefits
Just the benefit of marketing Indian engineering and IT prowess by IITians in the West should cover several times the investment made in the IIT system. As for redistribution, the investments (not redistribution) into IIT and IIM were some of the smart decisions taken by Indian govt. Come on, let it go. Let you sons and daughters contribute to India by joining IITs and IIMs.
IITs were not necessarily the best use of a fledgling nation’s money . once agin, IISc was founded by a private institution -the Tatas. The govt took over it later. BITS Pilani exists and flourishes even today,a very good example of private non tax payer funded higher education. there is no reason to believe that institutions similar and probaly better than the IITs would not have been thrown up by a system that didnt have the unholy UGC-AICTE-HRD trinity lording it over the choices people could make regarding their education.
Build a time machine (may be govt will give you a portion of their loot to build one) and go back to Nehru’s time and come up with something better and then pop back out and you will have your dream realized and Indian’s problem would be solved; grapes would not taste sour either. Interesting thing about IIT and IIM system is that they do not play any role in getting the politicians elected, so I wonder why did set up these gems. Whatever you may think, if Mackenzie was to value the returns of IIT (I am not sure about IIM), I would bet ROI would be huge unless we discount the discontent/sour taste of non-IITians. By the way, did you try for IIT JEE?
BTW… Now there are “Reservations” at IITs for other backward casts also and people with 1/10 the regular cut offs can get in … good luck with that…
pretty impressive. you guys are nearly upto page 4…
louisvillegrad wrote: "naah@Wallst firms having Indians.so why arent the east europeans on wall st leading offshoring work into east europe. well there simply isnt scale in east europe. thats the difference. they are easily more east europeans on wall st than indians. " You have got to be kidding me. There are far more Indians or Chinese on Wall St. than East Europeans. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah Dyslexic will invent facts to prove his arguements. Just shows that he has never been anywhere near the Wall St.
I have been following this thread from the beginning, but didn’t post because there is no point discussing this topic and comparing IITs (I’m not very sure about IIMs) with the global technical schools. However, there were some points on which I would like to comment, as I feel they are not trus. Someone mentioned that “IITs don’t add value to its students”… Please don’t make such vague statements about IITs. For any IITian, nothing could have added more value to him/her. Most of the students join these institutes after their senior secondary schools, and this is the first major step in their career. The ethnic, intellectual and serene environment which IITs provide, can’t be matched at undergraduate level (again I am not comparing it with other institutes, many of them provide similar benefits). The bond which one develops as being a part of IIT is life long and the value add is to high to be repaid. Another comment was “we don’t have good professors in IITs” Whoever made that comment, please let me know how many IIT professors you know? And again I would plead not to make such statements. Just go to the website of any IIT and look at the list of journal publications which professors have. Getting a noble prize is different, but I can tell you the some of the professors from IITs have been nominated for noble prize and some were able to make to the top 3. As far as the economic impact is concerned. I won’t say that only IITians are the ones who have improved the Indian economy, but they certainly have a significant contribution. The point mentioned by batterinram are very correct. For those who don’t agree, please visit the websites of service firms in India and you will find IITians in the list of management teams in most of these websites. Also, just go to the websites for global or indian (big ones) Private Equity firms, Investment Banks, asset management firms or consultancies, I look at their teams, if you find an Indian name there, 90% of the probability is that he did his/her undergraduate studies at IIT which offcourse was followed by a MBA from top global B-schools. The baseline is that JEE is a challenging exam and students learn a lot during preparing for JEE (even if they don’t qualify). Those who get shortlisted are the students who are motivated towards their career and have big ambitions. Everyone must agree that enterpreneurship is not something which can be developed in anyone, its something which is inherent, and somehow, most of the students who get into IITs have that inherent quality in them. Again not to say those who don’t qualify, don’t have that quality. Finally, I would urge that people should not make general statements about IITs without factual information. Indian citizens should feel proud to have such institutes.
Also, I would like to point out that there are no noble prizes for technical studies. There are noble prizes for science subjects and there are cases as I mentioned above of professors at IITs teaching Maths, Chemistry or Physics being nominated for noble prizes (IITs also have humanities courses, but they are not very well developed). For the accolades in technical fields, I don’t have much of information but yes, if you go to the IIT websites and check the biographies of professors, I don’t think you will find anyone without any international accolades in technical fields. If you visit their websites, kindly look at the list of international journal publications they have and how often they are invited to international universities. Also, they are very respected figures, if you have time visit some of the campuses and meet some of the professors, their thinking is intellectually very high and they are very humble (you will be suprized but in most of the IITs, professors and students use bicycles to commute as motorized vehicles cause pollution and are not economically the best choice). Again IITs are technical schools and not full fledged universities with all the various subjects.
buddham Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Build a time machine (may be govt will give you a > portion of their loot to build one) and go back to > Nehru’s time and come up with something better and > then pop back out and you will have your dream > realized and Indian’s problem would be solved; > grapes would not taste sour either. > > Interesting thing about IIT and IIM system is > that they do not play any role in getting the > politicians elected, so I wonder why did set up > these gems. Whatever you may think, if Mackenzie > was to value the returns of IIT (I am not sure > about IIM), I would bet ROI would be huge unless > we discount the discontent/sour taste of > non-IITians. By the way, did you try for IIT JEE? no, i didnt go to IIT. whats wrong with an that?. i dont have anything against IITians. i am questioning the fact that IIT should be funded by the taxpayer especially in a nation where there are a million other priorities. and especially when private parties have shown that they can do a better job . why do you think i am bitter about IIT?. i am not -ofcourse not. some of my best buddies and coworkers are IITians. if you say sour grapes one more time, you need to get a lobotomy. and wtf is a Mackenzie
batterinram Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > louisvillegrad wrote: > > "naah@Wallst firms having Indians.so why arent the > east europeans on wall st leading offshoring work > into east europe. well there simply isnt scale in > east europe. thats the difference. they are easily > more east europeans on wall st than indians. " > > You have got to be kidding me. There are far more > Indians or Chinese on Wall St. than East > Europeans. > -------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > Yeah Dyslexic will invent facts to prove his > arguements. Just shows that he has never been > anywhere near the Wall St. butterin ram . let us see your ‘facts’ to prove that there are more indians on wall st than east europeans. we can start with a few websites/demography surveys. have you even stepped outside of you silly KPO World?
I can appreciate now why CFAI went out of it’s way to include “claim of superiority” as against it’s code of Ethics. Clearly, IIT/IIM don’t have any such qualms. Ofcourse, IIT/IIM are superior and like Asok in Dilbert can perform all kinds of Miracles, which other mere mortals can’t. My respect for the CFAI code of ethics has increased after this discussion.