Dyslexic Wrote: butterin ram . let us see your ‘facts’ to prove that there are more indians on wall st than east europeans. we can start with a few websites/demography surveys. have you even stepped outside of you silly KPO World? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In fact I have. Worked for a few months in the US office of one of the biggest asset management firms. Attended a lot conferences organised by Wall st firms in NY. You are the one who made the statement about the Eastern Europeans, so why dont you provide some data. Please realise that people on this forum have industry experience and are not school kids. Dont make statements without any basis, if you do expect to be criticized. I tell you what, why dont you go and spend some time in some KPO, may be you will understand what is going on the investment world and not make statements from your backside.
that doesnt make you an expert on demography either. i accept i dont have any hard numbers. but there are clearly plenty of polish ,bulgarian,romanianand hungarian emigres on wall st. i probably have many more years of experience working in new york than you,so there’s no need to go there. its nice to know that your backside is more qualified to emit nonsense.good on you.
Dyslexic Wrote: that doesnt make you an expert on demography either. i accept i dont have any hard numbers. but there are clearly plenty of polish ,bulgarian,romanianand hungarian emigres on wall st. i probably have many more years of experience working in new york than you,so there’s no need to go there. its nice to know that your backside is more qualified to emit nonsense.good on you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So you made the statement without having any hard numbers great. You worked in NY and so you know more about the nationalities of people working on the wall st. Plenty of cab drivers, janitors work in NY I am sure they know a lot about wall st eh. You knew the statement about Eastern Europeans cannot be verified but still made it to support your argument.Which shows your argument was weak to start with. You are a guy who is bitter about not making it to IIT. There is no use in argiung with some one who relies on dodgy data to make his arguments.
buttering rum, where did I EVER say that I was bitter about not being from IIT?. You are free to jump to random conclusion based on your whims. you are the one who accused me of inventing facts. i redacted immediately when i couldnt supply them. i expect you to do the same if you have any sense of fair debate. my opposition is ONLY to the fact that IIT is funded by taxpayers when it simply should not be. its like socialism for the rich -geez. get out of your entitlement mentality and think for yourself for a change
Dslexic Wrote: my opposition is ONLY to the fact that IIT is funded by taxpayers when it simply should not be. its like socialism for the rich -geez. get out of your entitlement mentality and think for yourself for a change ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Entitlement mentality? LOL. I was not even close to getting into an IIT. You want facts. I am listing some of the Indians who are prominent in wall st. Let me start with Vikram Pandit- Citi Anshu Jain-DB Arjun Murthy- Partner at GS Arvind Sanger- Managing Partner Geosphere Arvind Raghunathan- DB equitech, head trader I think Vinay Singh- DB equitech Kuldeep Ram- Hedge Fund manager at Boston Ave capital Sanjiv Mirchandani-President Personal Investing Fidelity Ravi Akhoury-CEO, Mackay Shields Rohit D Souza-Head Global equity markets at Merrill Ashwinin Gupta-VP at American Express Prakash Melwani- Managing Director at Black Stone Arshad Zakaria- Founder of New Vernon India Fund Girish Reddy-Co-head of Equity Derivatives at GS Is this enough or you want more names. Now who are the East Europeans you were talking about
does naming some names prove that there are more Indians working on wall st?. geez. i hope you dont work in econometrics
batterinram, would you have any names/statistics of IIT/IIMians contributing to ISRO or BARC or to say Green Revolution or White Revolution any of the indigenous efforts? How does it compare to non-IITians?
Dyslexic Wrote: does naming some names prove that there are more Indians working on wall st?. geez. i hope you dont work in econometrics ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ These are people in prominent positions and not just any tom dick & harry. They have the authority to drive the outsourcing process. Since you said there are easily more E.Europeans in wall st, its only fair that you name a few in top positions. geez I hope you never get into media otherwise the viewers will hear more fiction than facts.
Careerchange wrote: batterinram, would you have any names/statistics of IIT/IIMians contributing to ISRO or BARC or to say Green Revolution or White Revolution any of the indigenous efforts? How does it compare to non-IITians? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No I dont, but when I dont have facts I just stick to my opinion. I dont cook up facts unlike some guys):. I answered your questions about why 2002 etc with facts. You can verify them if you want (Irevna etc started before HSBC, GS etc) do a google on who started these companies. You are clearly not interested in any meaningful debate, you are just hell bent on proving me wrong. The evidence is all around you, but you guys just dont want to see it.
Dsylexic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > buddham Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Build a time machine (may be govt will give you > a > > portion of their loot to build one) and go back > to > > Nehru’s time and come up with something better > and > > then pop back out and you will have your dream > > realized and Indian’s problem would be solved; > > grapes would not taste sour either. > > > > Interesting thing about IIT and IIM system is > > that they do not play any role in getting the > > politicians elected, so I wonder why did set > up > > these gems. Whatever you may think, if > Mackenzie > > was to value the returns of IIT (I am not sure > > about IIM), I would bet ROI would be huge > unless > > we discount the discontent/sour taste of > > non-IITians. By the way, did you try for IIT > JEE? > > > no, i didnt go to IIT. whats wrong with an that?. > i dont have anything against IITians. i am > questioning the fact that IIT should be funded by > the taxpayer especially in a nation where there > are a million other priorities. and especially > when private parties have shown that they can do a > better job . > why do you think i am bitter about IIT?. i am not > -ofcourse not. some of my best buddies and > coworkers are IITians. if you say sour grapes one > more time, you need to get a lobotomy. and wtf is > a Mackenzie Sorry to cause you to use some nasty stuff. I won’t mention … You keep talking about better usage of tax dollars. Can you mention a few that Indian govt would use that money for something better than IIT. By the way, do you know how much India spends on IIT/IIM? Again, without getting a ballpark number of ROI on this investment and just yapping about not using tax dollar for IIT does not make sense. Again, why do you think US, one of the most capitalist country, spends money on NSF, State Schools, etc.? I understand the benefit of capitalism, but you can not blindly follow this without context. IIT brand is one of the most recognized output of India and it gives a lot of credibility to the smart man power India has to offer. You go to any presentation about emerging markets, I bet there will be mention of IIT if there is a mention of India. As for “Mackenzie”, sorry for the misspelling; I meant “McKinsey & Co.”. I hope that is spelled correctly. Also, if you are willing to pay for lobotomy for me, I may take the offer and remove some part of my brain that causes me to be casteist, nationalistic, and stubborn.
gauravku Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I have been following this thread from the > beginning, but didn’t post because there is no > point discussing this topic and comparing IITs > (I’m not very sure about IIMs) with the global > technical schools. However, there were some points > on which I would like to comment, as I feel they > are not trus. > > Someone mentioned that “IITs don’t add value to > its students”… > > Please don’t make such vague statements about > IITs. For any IITian, nothing could have added > more value to him/her. Most of the students join > these institutes after their senior secondary > schools, and this is the first major step in their > career. The ethnic, intellectual and serene > environment which IITs provide, can’t be matched > at undergraduate level (again I am not comparing > it with other institutes, many of them provide > similar benefits). The bond which one develops as > being a part of IIT is life long and the value add > is to high to be repaid. > > Another comment was “we don’t have good professors > in IITs” > > Whoever made that comment, please let me know how > many IIT professors you know? > And again I would plead not to make such > statements. Just go to the website of any IIT and > look at the list of journal publications which > professors have. Getting a noble prize is > different, but I can tell you the some of the > professors from IITs have been nominated for noble > prize and some were able to make to the top 3. > > As far as the economic impact is concerned. I > won’t say that only IITians are the ones who have > improved the Indian economy, but they certainly > have a significant contribution. The point > mentioned by batterinram are very correct. For > those who don’t agree, please visit the websites > of service firms in India and you will find > IITians in the list of management teams in most of > these websites. Also, just go to the websites for > global or indian (big ones) Private Equity firms, > Investment Banks, asset management firms or > consultancies, I look at their teams, if you find > an Indian name there, 90% of the probability is > that he did his/her undergraduate studies at IIT > which offcourse was followed by a MBA from top > global B-schools. > > The baseline is that JEE is a challenging exam and > students learn a lot during preparing for JEE > (even if they don’t qualify). Those who get > shortlisted are the students who are motivated > towards their career and have big ambitions. > Everyone must agree that enterpreneurship is not > something which can be developed in anyone, its > something which is inherent, and somehow, most of > the students who get into IITs have that inherent > quality in them. Again not to say those who don’t > qualify, don’t have that quality. > > Finally, I would urge that people should not make > general statements about IITs without factual > information. Indian citizens should feel proud to > have such institutes. Gaurav, I agree with some of your points about just because somebody did not make it to IIT does nto mean they are not smart or smarter than an IITian. Also, I totally agree that IIT does let the students develop a network and bond that helps them in entrepreneurship and life. Apart from the networking and meeting some very intelligent students, I did/do not feel IIT added value that was anything above what is added by a very mediocre university in US. Sure they do teach the standard courses and stuff, but the level of education is not that great. Sure, the instructors point to good books and give challenging, albeit copied from their colleagues in US, tests. There were some great professors, but a large majority were not worth to be teaching IITians. Unless things have changed in the last decade, my experience at IIT was mostly of wasted four years. I did learn that IITians may be “intelligent” but they were one of the most conservative and Mommy’s boys kind who where not going to make much social difference. Most of them were from cities and had no clue about most of India. They were casteist and had a lot of regionalism in them. Dsylexic may see comments here very opposite of what I been saying about IIT brand, but I think it does not contradict my view that IITians, despite not getting a lot of value-add at IIT, are a smart bunch and by their contribution in US have done a lot for India in selling Indian man power. In this respect, IIT name/brand has helped people realize what India has to offer. Again, this does not mean that Indian IT is mostly supported by IITians. I think most of the work in Indian IT is being done by non-IITians. Most of the IITians tend to go to academics, research, Wall Street, Mgmt consulting and usually tend to get away from IT stuff anyway. Again, this is my view, may be biased, looking from outside India.
> Sorry to cause you to use some nasty stuff. I > won’t mention … > You keep talking about better usage of tax > dollars. Can you mention a few that Indian govt > would use that money for something better than > IIT. By the way, do you know how much India > spends on IIT/IIM? Again, without getting a > ballpark number of ROI on this investment and just > yapping about not using tax dollar for IIT does > not make sense. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050918/asp/nation/story_5252536.asp According to this article, about Ts 700-800 crores (roughly 200 million USD) is spent on IITs (per year I presume), for training 4000 students. Clearly there is better use of this money, than trying to produce the next CEO of Citi.
The Govt grant to IIT B is 70 crores /year. that is atleast 500 crores to the existing IITs and much more for the new ones. Not to mention the 1000 Crore plus of new investment because the govt wants to use the IITs to promote its brand of caste based socialism. some sources: http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/may/24spec.htm .google for similar data. this amount benefits just over 3000 students. the govt could easily fund the entire basic (till 12th grade) education of atleast 300000 or more students at any kendriya vidyalaya. clearly lifting these people out of poverty is way more effective and has more important multiplier effect for the economy. training a few engineers to serve in elite corporations should not be the goal of taxpayer money. if the IIM brand were so impressive, why has ISB which was established much after IIM K and IIM Indore and IIM L generate better research, better faculty and in general better placements for its students?. what was the big need to start these new IIM/IITs?. just to pander to parochial demands of politicians. plus do you realize how MM Joshi and our friend Arjun Singh are attempting to toy with these schools as if they were their private properties? now, please let me know why you think the govt should focus its energies on IITs which are eminently capable of taking care of themselves. the question of affordability was already answered -loans ,scholarships/endowment funds can easily take care of all the students who cant afford to pay. the nastiness could have been avoided if you had the grace to stop hitting me over my head with sour grape taunts.sorry,anyway.
------------------------------------------------ > -------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > No I dont, but when I dont have facts I just stick > to my opinion. I dont cook up facts unlike some > guys):. I answered your questions about why 2002 > etc with facts. You can verify them if you want > (Irevna etc started before HSBC, GS etc) do a > google on who started these companies. You are > clearly not interested in any meaningful debate, > you are just hell bent on proving me wrong. The > evidence is all around you, but you guys just > dont want to see it. Budham, no need to get personal. We are debating a point, not trying to prove someone said or did something. Dropping a few names does not prove a point. There are probably as many non-IITians working in all of these companies. If indeed IITs were solely responsible for the IT revolution in India and India would have not been an IT center without the IITs, then clearly there has not been enough has been written about it. I have a hard time believing it as Bangalore would not have been an IT center if it was dependent on IITians. Texas Instruments opened the first offshore center in Bangalore which triggered the offshoring story. Bangalore does not produce a large number of IITians, on the other hand Karnataka had a large number of Engg. colleges which produced Engg. graduates in plenty, this made Bangalore the IT capital in the country.
batterinram Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Careerchange wrote: > > batterinram, would you have any names/statistics > of IIT/IIMians contributing to ISRO or BARC or to > say Green Revolution or White Revolution any of > the indigenous efforts? > > How does it compare to non-IITians? > -------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------- Would it bother anyone that there’s not enough representation from IITs in achievements that India considers a feather in it’s cap? Working in top posts in Wall-Street is great, but I believe the fundamental mission of IITs was to help India become technology self-sufficient. That’s clearly not been achieved. Again, I don’t have statistics to prove any of this. however, my suspicion is that India is able to satellties into space and develop a nuclear arsenal not because of IITs, but inspite of IITs. I would love if someone can prove me wrong.
Dsylexic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The Govt grant to IIT B is 70 crores /year. that > is atleast 500 crores to the existing IITs and > much more for the new ones. Not to mention the > 1000 Crore plus of new investment because the govt > wants to use the IITs to promote its brand of > caste based socialism. > > some sources: > http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/may/24spec.htm > .google for similar data. > this amount benefits just over 3000 students. the > govt could easily fund the entire basic (till 12th > grade) education of atleast 300000 or more > students at any kendriya vidyalaya. clearly > lifting these people out of poverty is way more > effective and has more important multiplier effect > for the economy. training a few engineers to serve > in elite corporations should not be the goal of > taxpayer money. > if the IIM brand were so impressive, why has ISB > which was established much after IIM K and IIM > Indore and IIM L generate better research, better > faculty and in general better placements for its > students?. > > what was the big need to start these new > IIM/IITs?. just to pander to parochial demands of > politicians. plus do you realize how MM Joshi and > our friend Arjun Singh are attempting to toy with > these schools as if they were their private > properties? > > now, please let me know why you think the govt > should focus its energies on IITs which are > eminently capable of taking care of themselves. > the question of affordability was already answered > -loans ,scholarships/endowment funds can easily > take care of all the students who cant afford to > pay. > > the nastiness could have been avoided if you had > the grace to stop hitting me over my head with > sour grape taunts.sorry,anyway. Again sorry for causing anguish with the sour thingy. That was mean of me. As for “just 3000 students benefitting from IIT system” is a parochial view of IIT system’s contribution. What value do you put on the marketing/sales IITians have done and are doing for Indian manpower? I would say IITians have played a major role in making India the IT power house it is by giving credibility to Indian man power. I am not saying IITians are the major players in Indian IT. Most of IITians move away from engineering to other things like management, teaching, research, finance, mgmt consulting, etc. Again through by their work in these areas, they lend credibility to Indian human resource. You may belittle this, but I think this is of huge value to India and a lot more than sum of individual work done by IITians. Also, look at the budget some of US schools to put the cost in perspective. As for loans and things, people are in a dream world. Which bank will give even a few rupees to students whose parents can barely provide fo the family? Dude, just because the IT guys can get loans, does not mean everybody has opportunity for this. This is one of the biggest difference between India and US. In US, almost everybody has opportunity to further their life. Money is not the problem; you can borrow. That is just not true for most of the Indians. When it becomes so, I would support you in privatizing everything in India.
> As for “just 3000 students benefitting from IIT > system” is a parochial view of IIT system’s > contribution. What value do you put on the > marketing/sales IITians have done and are doing > for Indian manpower? I would say IITians have > played a major role in making India the IT power > house it is by giving credibility to Indian man > power. I am not saying IITians are the major > players in Indian IT. Most of IITians move away > from engineering to other things like management, > teaching, research, finance, mgmt consulting, etc. > Again through by their work in these areas, they > lend credibility to Indian human resource. You may > belittle this, but I think this is of huge value > to India and a lot more than sum of individual > work done by IITians. They could perhaps have done this without help from IITs. There are plenty of succesful Indians around the world who have done lots of things without setting a foot in any of the IITs. It almost seems to me that there’s a belief that there’s a wide-gap between those get into IITs and those who don’t. I am sure given a population of a billion there are more brigther and ambitious people outside of IIT than inside. > > Also, look at the budget some of US schools to put > the cost in perspective. > > As for loans and things, people are in a dream > world. Which bank will give even a few rupees to > students whose parents can barely provide fo the > family? Dude, just because the IT guys can get > loans, does not mean everybody has opportunity for > this. This is one of the biggest difference > between India and US. In US, almost everybody has > opportunity to further their life. Money is not > the problem; you can borrow. That is just not true > for most of the Indians. When it becomes so, I > would support you in privatizing everything in > India. Well, isn’t it interesting the same folks who thing it’s OK for the govt. to provide subsidy to IITs think it’s not OK to bring in reservations. Clearly, not enough lower caste folks get out of IITs (as a percentage of the generic population). Why can’t the same logic used for money be used for reservations? If some people can’t afford it, others don’t have the same level of access to it.
my head is spinning batterinram buttering ram buttering rum dsylexic, you’re getting way with taking advantage of your name… lol
loans not available for IIT and IIM education?. what sort of loser bank would be blind to such a sure thing?. student loans are not made on the basis of collateral. so parents income is out of question -the earning potential of the student is assessed.and if any bank is unaware of the potentially guaranteed cash flows these people will generate, there is a good chance a thousand other banks will jump in. all IIM students atleast are guaranteed loans on admission -its a given. not aware if IIT students have any issues. in anycase are you honestly saying that higher education ,which is a privelege, and not a necessity should be sponsored by the state AT the opportunity cost of getting out of poverty for a lakh fold other people?. talk of fairness. thats why i say that it is socialism for those who dont need it desperately. if you graduated in the last decade or so,its clear that I indirectly funded your education -now why is that fair to me ,you and my uneducated maid?
CareerChange Wrote: ------------------------------------------------ > -------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > No I dont, but when I dont have facts I just stick > to my opinion. I dont cook up facts unlike some > guys):. I answered your questions about why 2002 > etc with facts. You can verify them if you want > (Irevna etc started before HSBC, GS etc) do a > google on who started these companies. You are > clearly not interested in any meaningful debate, > you are just hell bent on proving me wrong. The > evidence is all around you, but you guys just > dont want to see it. Budham, no need to get personal. We are debating a point, not trying to prove someone said or did something. Dropping a few names does not prove a point. There are probably as many non-IITians working in all of these companies. If indeed IITs were solely responsible for the IT revolution in India and India would have not been an IT center without the IITs, then clearly there has not been enough has been written about it. I have a hard time believing it as Bangalore would not have been an IT center if it was dependent on IITians. Texas Instruments opened the first offshore center in Bangalore which triggered the offshoring story. Bangalore does not produce a large number of IITians, on the other hand Karnataka had a large number of Engg. colleges which produced Engg. graduates in plenty, this made Bangalore the IT capital in the country. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually I wrote that. You have got it wrong I dropped those names just to prove there are a lot of Indians working in Wall St. This was in response to Dyslexic post about how there are easily more Eastern Europeans than Indians in Wall St. It has nothing to do with IITians contributing to IT sector. In fact many of the names I mentioned might not have gone to IIT at all. Look I dont understand why you think I am getting personal. Dyslexic made a statement that cannot be verified and I let him know. I dont know how this can be construed as getting personal. In fact he was the one who ridiculed my KPO job. I never said IITs were the sole reason for India’s IT boom, I said they were the single most important factor. There is a difference, if 10 factors contributed to IT boom in India and contribution of IIT is say 20%, then IITs were the single most important factor but obviously not the sole reason. I wish you guys read my posts a bit more carefully. I will never enter into an argument with you about programming without being 100% sure of what I am saying because I know you are from that industry. I expect the IT guys to be a bit more careful when they are debating about the investment with people working in that industry. No hard feelings