What if Madoff felt justified in his actions because he, as a market insider, saw that the whole system was just faith based anyway? All regimes are based on confidence, whether it’s a government or an investment bank. All regimes come to an end. He did an excellent job of building up confidence. If I were him, these are the things I would’ve told myself to stave off any guilt as I sailed around the French Riviera. In the paper this morning I read that he told a widow that “your money is safe with me” as they stood over the deceased husband.
Just a hunch, but I don’t think sociopaths require internal justifications because I don’t think their consciences really bother them.
How would that justify outright theft and fraud? I think a guy that’s able to do what he did must be wired diferently than most of the rest of us (or mentally ill, or something) so it seems kind of hard to talk about what might have been going on in his head.
he could’ve believed that it was not his responsibility to be ethical, it was his investors’ responsibility as it was their money. i sort of agree. i feel no remorse for those who lost everything. they’re idiots. madoff was obviously a genius.
I’m sure it wasn’t hard for him to make the leap. As a market insider Madoff has been witness to insane amounts of greed that were based on confidence. Personally, one lesson i’ve learned from all this is to avoid confident people.
It was his investors’ responsibility for him to be ethical? That doesn’t make any sense. MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > he could’ve believed that it was not his > responsibility to be ethical, it was his > investors’ responsibility as it was their money. i > sort of agree.
I can see your point when it comes to institutions who invested billions or hundreds of millions with him, but seriously… You feel no remorse for an old lady or couple who have given their money to their financial advisor of the last thirty years who has unfortunately given it all to Madoff? Not everyone has the clout to properly monitor where their investments go. That doesn’t mean they deserve to be robbed.
i’ll rephrase, it isn’t his responsibility to be ethical, it is his clients’ responsibility to ensure that he is being ethical. if they cannot decipher fingers from toes, than its their loss. he’s only a middle man. he is neither the investor nor the investee. he just pairs people up with actual companies. if his clients cannot ensure he is doing so (i.e. performing a middle man role properly), yet they still invest, they are investing in just that, uncertainty.
What about the widow?
and no, no remorse. i don’t care if you have the ‘clout’ or not. you should understand the basics. do i give my car to a mechanic and say, bill me for anything and everything? do i trust him fully, no, if he says he’s gonna do something that i don’t think is proper (which i’d have to have a general understand of cars for), then i’d get another opinion and research some more. do i hire a lawyer to defend my case and then wear ear plugs in the court? extreme, but no, i want to have a say if something is said that i don’t agree with. i don’t care if she’s 99 and now destitute. it was her husbands fault for not performing the due diligence at the time of deposit and its his wife’s loss. anyone who concentrates their holdings is stupid, unless you have the ability to recover. as for an advisor who put all her money with madoff, yeah it sucks, but i’m sure the client could have said, why? and should have said no, i don’t want it there and after that point, the onus is on the advisor who can then get sued for the entire amount. its common sense. i have no pity for the stupid or ignorant. pick up a book and learn the basics.
Part of me has to agree… even though its pretty harsh. Some investors were just greedy, if its too good to be true…
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > i’ll rephrase, it isn’t his responsibility to be > ethical, it is his clients’ responsibility to > ensure that he is being ethical. Surely you jest. It most certainly WAS his responsibility to behave ethically.
cfa2grunt Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > i’ll rephrase, it isn’t his responsibility to > be > > ethical, it is his clients’ responsibility to > > ensure that he is being ethical. > > Surely you jest. It most certainly WAS his > responsibility to behave ethically. its not illegal to be unethical. he’s not a cfa charterholder, so he is not in violation. his various actions of fraud were illegal. its not even a matter of ethics, its a matter of law. the fact that analysts and other market spectators have been going on about his shady operations since the late 90s should tell you that the fund should have been avoided. if you read a public report stating that madoff may be performing fraud, would you invest with him? i wouldn’t. then you read another one. still invest? then another. still invest? how many warning signs do you need before you pull your money out? if you keep your money with madoff after learning that he is so secretive and that many market participants doubt his claims and track record to the point where they recommend staying away from his fund, i have NO sympathy. you are stupid, you deserve to be burnt. if there is that much uncertainty, invest say 10% of your wealth, not 100%. thats just lazy and the lazy die young.
In this case ethics and the law are on the same side, so I really don’t get your point. Were some/most of his victims lazy and/or stupid? Yes. That doesn’t equate to deserving what Madoff did to them. “that’s just lazy and the lazy die young.” What does that even mean?
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > and no, no remorse. i don’t care if you have the > ‘clout’ or not. you should understand the basics. > do i give my car to a mechanic and say, bill me > for anything and everything? do i trust him fully, > no, if he says he’s gonna do something that i > don’t think is proper (which i’d have to have a > general understand of cars for), then i’d get > another opinion and research some more. do i hire > a lawyer to defend my case and then wear ear plugs > in the court? extreme, but no, i want to have a > say if something is said that i don’t agree with. Sorry but this doesn’t make any sense. You hire a lawyer or a mechanic you have to place a certain amount of trust in them. Do you go through every single thing your mechanic does? Did you check every part they said they put into your car to make sure it corresponds to what’s on your invoice? No, because if you could do that you would have fixed the car yourself. And you couldn’t do that.
yes, madoff did something wrong. he didn’t perform his duty as middle man properly. i suppose that encompasses both ethics and law. the victims are more at fault than he is. he was not a professional. he was a schister is a professional’s clothing. the media paints madoff as the most evil man who ever lived. he didn’t even do anything that bad. he took new investors’ money and gave it to current investors. he stole a bit but his investors ENABLED him to do so. he wouldn’t have been able to “steal” 60 billion unless he could get people to invest 60 billion. this scam was perpetrated by the investors, madoff was only an advocate. those who got burnt created the fund and allowed the fund to be what it was with their own money. that’s just lazy and the lazy die young. too many people are intellectually fat. fat people have heart attacks and die. its a shame it doesn’t happen to stupid people more often.
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > yes, madoff did something wrong. he didn’t perform > his duty as middle man properly. i suppose that > encompasses both ethics and law. the victims are > more at fault than he is. he was not a > professional. he was a schister is a > professional’s clothing. the media paints madoff > as the most evil man who ever lived. he didn’t > even do anything that bad. he took new investors’ > money and gave it to current investors. he stole a > bit but his investors ENABLED him to do so. he > wouldn’t have been able to “steal” 60 billion > unless he could get people to invest 60 billion. > this scam was perpetrated by the investors, madoff > was only an advocate. those who got burnt created > the fund and allowed the fund to be what it was > with their own money. > > that’s just lazy and the lazy die young. too many > people are intellectually fat. fat people have > heart attacks and die. its a shame it doesn’t > happen to stupid people more often. You’re whack, dude.
MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > yes, madoff did something wrong. he didn’t perform > his duty as middle man properly. i suppose that > encompasses both ethics and law. the victims are > more at fault than he is. he was not a > professional. he was a schister is a > professional’s clothing. the media paints madoff > as the most evil man who ever lived. he didn’t > even do anything that bad. he took new investors’ > money and gave it to current investors. he stole a > bit but his investors ENABLED him to do so. he > wouldn’t have been able to “steal” 60 billion > unless he could get people to invest 60 billion. > this scam was perpetrated by the investors, madoff > was only an advocate. those who got burnt created > the fund and allowed the fund to be what it was > with their own money. > > that’s just lazy and the lazy die young. too many > people are intellectually fat. fat people have > heart attacks and die. its a shame it doesn’t > happen to stupid people more often. This is probably the stupidest thing I have ever read on this forum.
soddy1979 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > and no, no remorse. i don’t care if you have > the > > ‘clout’ or not. you should understand the > basics. > > do i give my car to a mechanic and say, bill me > > for anything and everything? do i trust him > fully, > > no, if he says he’s gonna do something that i > > don’t think is proper (which i’d have to have a > > general understand of cars for), then i’d get > > another opinion and research some more. do i > hire > > a lawyer to defend my case and then wear ear > plugs > > in the court? extreme, but no, i want to have a > > say if something is said that i don’t agree > with. > > Sorry but this doesn’t make any sense. You hire a > lawyer or a mechanic you have to place a certain > amount of trust in them. Do you go through every > single thing your mechanic does? Did you check > every part they said they put into your car to > make sure it corresponds to what’s on your > invoice? No, because if you could do that you > would have fixed the car yourself. And you > couldn’t do that. no but you should check most and you should know a lot about your car if you’re driving one. don’t use anything you don’t understand (whether it be an inaminate object like a car or a ‘professional’). second and third opinions tend to keep people honest. are you telling me you always use the first guy you find and put all your trust in him. if so, you’re in for a life of getting burnt.
soddy1979 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > MattLikesAnalysis Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > yes, madoff did something wrong. he didn’t > perform > > his duty as middle man properly. i suppose that > > encompasses both ethics and law. the victims > are > > more at fault than he is. he was not a > > professional. he was a schister is a > > professional’s clothing. the media paints > madoff > > as the most evil man who ever lived. he didn’t > > even do anything that bad. he took new > investors’ > > money and gave it to current investors. he stole > a > > bit but his investors ENABLED him to do so. he > > wouldn’t have been able to “steal” 60 billion > > unless he could get people to invest 60 > billion. > > this scam was perpetrated by the investors, > madoff > > was only an advocate. those who got burnt > created > > the fund and allowed the fund to be what it was > > with their own money. > > > > that’s just lazy and the lazy die young. too > many > > people are intellectually fat. fat people have > > heart attacks and die. its a shame it doesn’t > > happen to stupid people more often. > > This is probably the stupidest thing I have ever > read on this forum. thats reality dude. if nobody gave him money, he wouldn’t have stolen as much. he would’ve kept going until he died if the market didn’t collapse. the fund would’ve been at 200 billion. why? not because he’s any better at what he does, but because investors continue to invest blindly. these stories actually make me happy as investors should be afraid. this is still the wild west, just in suits and we ride jaguars instead of horses. well i guess you could ride in a mustang. the bottom line is that people got greedy and now they pretty much lost it all. a lesson learnt i hope, but people will continue to cry out to be saved for their own mistakes. take responsibilty. another symptom of the incapable.