For those of you who grew up in Russia/China/Korea or any other country with a strong Math emphasis now living in the U.S., if by any chance you have children, would you try to actively compensate for the lack of strong Math foundations at early stages of their education in the U.S.? I would like to know whether there’s a material difference between Math education approaches from elementary to high school, or is just that kids from those countries and their parents are more focused on mastering the same material.
Well played.
So, I guess I’m one of those weird foreign people to whom your question is targeted… “would you try to actively compensate for the lack of strong Math foundations at early stages of their education in the U.S.?” No. “I would like to know whether there’s a material difference between Math education approaches from elementary to high school, or is just that kids from those countries and their parents are more focused on mastering the same material.” It’s both. If the society in general emphasizes math and science education over stuff like liberal arts, then naturally, both parents and policy makers will try to make kids learn math and science over the other stuff. With that being said, I do not believe that people in the US have fewer *opportunities* to obtain superior math and science educations than people in those other countries. People here just have other options that society values.
SMIRK Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Well played. No, it’s a legit question. I don’t live in the U.S. and while private education administered by U.S. teachers here is very good, I see the same lack of Math emphasis. My kids will start first grade in a couple of years, so I probably can’t rely on their intelligence nor their U.S.-based study program to appropriately educate them in Math. That’s why I would like to know if someone on AF has taken a proactive approach about this issue.
Part-time Crook Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > SMIRK Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Well played. > > No, it’s a legit question. I don’t live in the > U.S. and while private education administered by > U.S. teachers here is very good, I see the same > lack of Math emphasis. > > My kids will start first grade in a couple of > years, so I probably can’t rely on their > intelligence nor their U.S.-based study program to > appropriately educate them in Math. That’s why I > would like to know if someone on AF has taken a > proactive approach about this issue. Good question. Living in the US you have to assume that the school is for fun and play, the real work is at home. I personally rely on sites like indianmathonline.com and other similar programs to help educate my second grader on a similar level to what I grew up with.
I will probably take the approach similar to mo34. One of my goals will be exposing my kid to much wider areas of math and ESPECIALLY geometry on in plane and space much earlier then it is done in US. Also, basic probability, set theory, logic, NUMBER THEORY and other subjects which are not given as much weight in US education system.
In china, math education starts at age 5. By the time they reach first grade, memorization of the muliplication table is expected. Chinese approach to math education is pure and simple----quantities of homework. No calcuator is allowed, try problem like 371X45 or 5897/13, do it by hand is less than 30 seconds, or get yelled at in front of your classmate. School is not fun and play, it is competition among students. My sister plan to send her kid (4 now) back to China for her elemtary education, then take her back for college education.
ws Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In china, math education starts at age 5. By the > time they reach first grade, memorization of the > muliplication table is expected. Chinese approach > to math education is pure and simple----quantities > of homework. No calcuator is allowed, try problem > like 371X45 or 5897/13, do it by hand is less > than 30 seconds, or get yelled at in front of your > classmate. School is not fun and play, it is > competition among students. My sister plan to > send her kid (4 now) back to China for her > elemtary education, then take her back for college > education. That is idiotic. Math is creative subject and you need to be given freedom. I wasn’t given a grade only check, check plus until 3rd grade.
Not exactly idiotic! Practice makes perfection…given a solid foundation, more creatative can be build on top.
I agree with ws. In order to be creative you have to be fluent in the mechanical stuff. My son in second grade has to solve 60-70 math problem daily, it’s like brushing his teeth for him 
Sometimes I make “trades” with him where I substitute 10 “donkey” problems with 3 or 4 word "smart " problems Once he gets comfortable with the mechanics he starts coming up with this own ideas for applications. I thought about sending him to his grandparents back home but I felt bad about all the fun he would be missing by going to school here.
Er, do we really have any reason to believe that kids in the US are getting substandard educations? Maybe this math/science focus that some countries have is not optimal. I grew up in an Asian country with such a culture and could have benefited from a better-rounded education. Maybe if China trained more of its citizens in liberal arts and sociology, they would have fewer human rights violations. There is no way that the median Indian citizen uses calculus in his or her daily life. I would argue that countries would benefit if some of its top citizens aspired to be something other than doctors and engineers. Otherwise, other fields will only get the spillover of less talented people. Furthermore, is there any proof that the US is falling behind in math and science compared to the rest of the world? The world’s best technical institutions are in the US, and a plurality of the students and professors in these institutions are American. Consider that the flourishing of these institutions is contingent on good public policy, rather than just having people who can multiply large numbers in their heads. To construct effective public policies, you need intelligent people to learn about governance and policymaking, not just how to program in 10 different computer languages. Additionally, US students still perform admirably at international mathematics tournaments, and the US leads the world in technological innovation - Silicon Valley, privatized space travel, and leading medical research are products of American scientific ingenuity. I am not saying that math and science education is not important. The US just seems to do a better job than almost any other country in providing opportunities for its students to obtain balanced educations. The effects of are evident in America’s overwhelming economic success and social freedom. Every country needs to foster good scientists and engineers. However, culturing creativity and free thinking is also necessary for the those scientists to succeed. I challenge you to walk onto Google campus, or spend a day in a laboratory at Caltech and still believe that the US is not getting it right.
Hello Mister Walrus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Er, do we really have any reason to believe that > kids in the US are getting substandard educations? > Maybe this math/science focus that some countries > have is not optimal. I grew up in an Asian country > with such a culture and could have benefited from > a better-rounded education. Maybe if China trained > more of its citizens in liberal arts and > sociology, they would have fewer human rights > violations. There is no way that the median Indian > citizen uses calculus in his or her daily life. I > would argue that countries would benefit if some > of its top citizens aspired to be something other > than doctors and engineers. Otherwise, other > fields will only get the spillover of less > talented people. > > Furthermore, is there any proof that the US is > falling behind in math and science compared to the > rest of the world? The world’s best technical > institutions are in the US, and a plurality of the > students and professors in these institutions are > American. Consider that the flourishing of these > institutions is contingent on good public policy, > rather than just having people who can multiply > large numbers in their heads. To construct > effective public policies, you need intelligent > people to learn about governance and policymaking, > not just how to program in 10 different computer > languages. Additionally, US students still perform > admirably at international mathematics > tournaments, and the US leads the world in > technological innovation - Silicon Valley, > privatized space travel, and leading medical > research are products of American scientific > ingenuity. > > I am not saying that math and science education is > not important. The US just seems to do a better > job than almost any other country in providing > opportunities for its students to obtain balanced > educations. The effects of are evident in > America’s overwhelming economic success and social > freedom. Every country needs to foster good > scientists and engineers. However, culturing > creativity and free thinking is also necessary for > the those scientists to succeed. I challenge you > to walk onto Google campus, or spend a day in a > laboratory at Caltech and still believe that the > US is not getting it right. Dump. Go read “Outliers”.
mo34 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I agree with ws. In order to be creative you have > to be fluent in the mechanical stuff. My son in > second grade has to solve 60-70 math problem > daily, it’s like brushing his teeth for him > Sometimes I make “trades” with him where I > substitute 10 “donkey” problems with 3 or 4 word > "smart " problems > > Once he gets comfortable with the mechanics he > starts coming up with this own ideas for > applications. > > I thought about sending him to his grandparents > back home but I felt bad about all the fun he > would be missing by going to school here. Donkey problems? Nice.
I don’t know about all US schools but when I went to a US high school for a year, I was quite impressed with the opportunities offered. I was allowed to take a Calculus BC exam right away and then take Multi-variable Calculus in a local college. With that said, I think parents can help their kids quite a bit. They can give fun tricky problems to their kids (while they are little) to help them learn to think outside of the box. As kids grow up, parents can encourage them get involved in math competitions and continue giving some more complex math problems once in a while.
It is a numbers game too especially in India, China. You dont hear about the students that struggle in the countries mentioned. I think the US system fosters more all-round development nevertheless the difficulty level could be raised a notch. Perhaps there could be an additional class for students that demonstrate an aptitude for more advanced curriculum.
Part of the challenge in the US is that teachers don’t have much authority to control their classrooms. Parents call up and threaten to get a teacher fired because they gave a bad grade to a student who may well have deserved the bad grade, but the parents figure that calling the teacher is like calling customer service and “the customer is always right.” The teacher can stand his or her ground for a while, but eventually they start to wonder why they are putting up with this abuse for cr@p pay. Over time they discover that if they make the exams easier and give out mostly good grades, they don’t get nasty phone calls at night and can actually get some sleep now and then. In many of these other countries, teachers are actually well respected and have a decent amount of authority to control students and raise the expectations bar. I think if we stood behind our teachers more and didn’t coddle whiny students and parents as much we could do much better in our math and science education. That said, I do think that the US system does do a decent job of emphasizing a broad base of skills development.
math must be taught at home in a western society. having an entire society so focused on math/science may or may not be good, but while living in a society that puts equal emphasis on the sciences and the arts, its up to the parent to assist in teaching the sciences, as they are much harder for the child to get interested in and learn (interest and ability/willingness to learn are highly correlated) on his/her own.
Okay two part answer, first to the OP and second to destroy absolutely everything that Walrus said. OP: Grew up and went to school in Russia until 10, moved to Canada and then all over the States for secondary and collegiate education, so since I have done both I have a more objective means of comparing. In Russia the focus wasn’t just on Math, it was also Physics, Chemistry, History, Geography, and Literature (you had about 7-8 classes each day, went for half a day and had the other half HW etc). Algebra starts in 4th grade, Chemistry and Physics at 5th grade! These classes continue for the next 8 and 7 years, respectively, at an increasing level of complexity. When we moved to Canada, my classmates in the fifth grade were still memorizing their multiplication tables! I mean come-on seriously? In the fifth grade!?! Happily both of my parents were scientists so they had my sister ship me the books for each grade level for both math and science which we covered together (also helped stay fluent in Russian, to where I can still speak, read, write…although the writing isn’t the best since I don’t have regular practice). When I have kids I will absolutely be doing something similar to supplement the horrible primary and secondary system we have in the states. This will include math, science, logic and reasoning, philosophy, history (not just the US kind either), literature, Russian and Chinese (tutor for this one), as well as finance and accounting; sure its a lot but so will be the payoff in their life and I don’t mind investments with high returns which is what I view this as. Sure once you get to 10th-12th grade there are opportunities for the very bright kids (i.e. AP classes and ability to take college courses), but by this point the damage is already done, which is why it is so important to get your kids on the right path from the start while their minds are still open and malleable instead of subjecting them to mind numbing TV and video games and teachers that barely got their bachelor’s degrees. Walrus: Sorry, but I couldn’t disagree any more with just about everything you say. Not trying to be rude but I just think we have a fundamental difference of opinion. So here it goes a) “do we really have any reason to believe that kids in the US are getting substandard educations?” Yes we do, math in science isn’t just good for children for the sake of being nerdy drones, it is good because it teaches them to think and problem solve in a non-standard fashion; this would be what mo34 would call “smart” problems (compare to US approach, HW is a variation of the same exact problem repeated 20x and requiring no thinking past solving the first one which is really easy, this true all the way through AP Calc BC). Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, you are missing the point that we are discussing primary and secondary education. I don’t know many people who decide concretely on a career path in the 5th grade! This schooling is provided to allow our kids to cope and deal with the problems they will face in a critical, reasoned and rational manner not to set them on a career to astrophysics. Some will love it, some won’t (and guess what they can decide on something different in college if they don’t love it, since this is where a future career path is set upon) but at least all will have the tools and knowledge to succeed in this world, rather than just being witless drones that go through the motions and have no ability for independent thought, creativity, or critical reasoning of their own. b) “is there any proof that the US is falling behind in math and science compared to the rest of the world?” Yes there is, again we are talking about primary and secondary education here NOT collegiate and graduate; just do a google search for how our elementary, middle, and high school students compare to the rest of the world. “plurality of the students and professors in these institutions are American” ROFLMFAO at this comment. Have you ever been to university (sorry, don’t mean to be mean spirited here, but com’on!)? plurality of students?? Sure maybe at the undergrad level, but have a look at any grad class except maybe like English lit) and you will find the majority are foreign. Furthermore, there is direct correlation between the difficulty of the field and the number of foreigners seeking graduate degrees in that field, the correlation become even stronger when we look only at the PhD seeking subset of the population. Professors? Most are foreign, newly naturalized, or second generation Americans (this is why our university are ranked so highly, not because truly American students are so great; further proof look at ethnic break down of college entrance exam scores)! The students you are referring to preforming admirably at international events and at Silicon Valley aren’t reall American’s, sure Rajish may have been born in the States, attended k-12 in the States and attend MIT in the States, but he sure as SHIT isn’t there because of the American schooling system; he is there because of his parents, his work ethic, and a crap load of extracurricular studying well above and beyond what is taught in our schools. c) “I am not saying that math and science education is not important. The US just seems to do a better job than almost any other country in providing opportunities for its students to obtain balanced educations. The effects of are evident in America’s overwhelming economic success and social freedom.” No we don’t, the education is lacking and sub-par to the point of embarrassment (ex. a large portion of the high school population can’t say what George Washington or Abe Lincoln are famous for [hint not the cars he makes], or even name their state’s Senators). American economic success has been driven by our openness and tolerance of others which has attracted IMMIGRANTS that have built this country from the ground up (after several generations this impetus to improve oneself is generally gone as the great-grandchildren and beyond become entrenched and complacent). Again, not trying to be a douche here, but it just so happened that I disagreed with pretty much everything you said;)
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Part of the challenge in the US is that teachers > don’t have much authority to control their > classrooms. Parents call up and threaten to get a > teacher fired because they gave a bad grade to a > student who may well have deserved the bad grade, > but the parents figure that calling the teacher is > like calling customer service and “the customer is > always right.” > > The teacher can stand his or her ground for a > while, but eventually they start to wonder why > they are putting up with this abuse for cr@p pay. > Over time they discover that if they make the > exams easier and give out mostly good grades, they > don’t get nasty phone calls at night and can > actually get some sleep now and then. > > In many of these other countries, teachers are > actually well respected and have a decent amount > of authority to control students and raise the > expectations bar. I think if we stood behind our > teachers more and didn’t coddle whiny students and > parents as much we could do much better in our > math and science education. > > That said, I do think that the US system does do a > decent job of emphasizing a broad base of skills > development. That is so true. Teacher get sub-standard treatment in US school system. Parents always think their little angel can do no wrong, and their kids deserve better grades. Truth is NO! I rememeber vividly that back in China, parents will go to school and beg teacher to have sole authority over their kids (including minor capital punishment for not doing homework, I am dead serious). I am not suggesting we have this kind of policy here. However, it show the kind of mindset of Chinese parents when it come to educations and respect to educators.