adavydov7 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think you are mistaking the meaning of “plurality” for that of “majority”. Also, I never said that enlightened parental guidance is not important - this is part of education as well. The beauty of the US education system is that it provides unparalleled opportunities if someone *chooses* to take advantage of them. In the case of young children, it is their parents that make this decision. The fact that immigrant parents are able to push their children to excel in US schools is reflective of these opportunities. It does not indicate that the system is inferior. As anecdotal evidence, the absolutely smartest person I knew at Stanford University was the son of Jewish Americans. I also knew a valedictorian from Exeter, a state calculus champion, and another Jewish American guy who did not even bother to apply to investment banking jobs - he started a hedge fund while at college and turned a profit in 2008 (presumably in 2009 also). Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are not the children of immigrants. It is a credit to US immigrants that they have managed to achieve so much in this country. However, this does not detract from the fact that there are many home-grown geniuses here as well. The median American is not destined to win a Fields Medal, but neither is the median Russian, Chinese or Indian citizen. Like I said before, walk onto Google or Apple campuses, or an MIT or Caltech laboratory. You will find the best minds that America has to offer, in addition to the best minds from the rest of the world. These people chose to immigrate to America for many reasons, including educational opportunities for their children. And again, plurality <> majority.
ws Wrote: >I rememeber vividly that back in China, parents will > go to school and beg teacher to have sole > authority over their kids (including minor capital > punishment for not doing homework, I am dead > serious). Minor capital punishment? So instead of getting being stoned to death or drawn and quartered they get lethal injection or something? That actually sounds like a great way to improve not only our educational system, but also our gene pool, haha. I think you meant corporal punishment, ahah.
bchadwick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Part of the challenge in the US is that teachers > don’t have much authority to control their > classrooms. Parents call up and threaten to get a > teacher fired because they gave a bad grade to a > student who may well have deserved the bad grade, > but the parents figure that calling the teacher is > like calling customer service and “the customer is > always right.” > > The teacher can stand his or her ground for a > while, but eventually they start to wonder why > they are putting up with this abuse for cr@p pay. > Over time they discover that if they make the > exams easier and give out mostly good grades, they > don’t get nasty phone calls at night and can > actually get some sleep now and then. > > In many of these other countries, teachers are > actually well respected and have a decent amount > of authority to control students and raise the > expectations bar. I think if we stood behind our > teachers more and didn’t coddle whiny students and > parents as much we could do much better in our > math and science education. > > That said, I do think that the US system does do a > decent job of emphasizing a broad base of skills > development. I believe that one of the hardest things to do in the US is to fire a teacher. I have read about teachers in NYC convicted of sex crimes and who could not be fired due to Unions Contracts.
In much of the US teachers do get good benefits and the salary is not too terrible. However, with the liability revolution in the states and the general “my child is unique and special just like everyone elses’” attitude teachers are very hard pressed to be able to actually do their job. I know a fair amount of teachers and have been involved with Teach for America. In general, the problem seems to be how parents approach things: either they care way to much about THEIR child (at the expense of everyone elses’) or they just do not care at all.
adavydov7 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Again, not trying to be a douche here, but it just > so happened that I disagreed with pretty much > everything you said;) Great post ! I’m personally trying to strike a balance with my son. I don’t want him to miss out on all the fun schools have to offer here. So he gets the “rounded” part at school and I take care of the reading, writing, math and science at home 
Bottom line is, if I can make him love/excel at math/science I know he’ll get a good job in the future. Sure history, philosophy and all this other stuff is important , but that’s more like a hobby.
Should teach ur kid finance + econ at young age. Maybe he can then go to H and land a nice Wall street job.
eureka Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ws Wrote: > >I rememeber vividly that back in China, parents > will > > go to school and beg teacher to have sole > > authority over their kids (including minor > capital > > punishment for not doing homework, I am dead > > serious). > > Minor capital punishment? So instead of getting > being stoned to death or drawn and quartered they > get lethal injection or something? That actually > sounds like a great way to improve not only our > educational system, but also our gene pool, haha. > > I think you meant corporal punishment, ahah. Yes, yes, corporal punishment is what I meant. Thanks!! Things like slapping the palm or standing at the corner of a classroom facing the wall.
A few years ago a Korean friend told me that Math was like another mother language for him, mainly because the way he was educated back in South Korea. He said that suicidal students are not uncommon because of the constant pressure and minimal room for failure. Of course that kind of pressure is crazy and unhealthy. As mo34 says, I also think this is a good approach: keep most of the fun for the kids—making lots of friends and having good times are as important as a good education—but adding a long-term strategy to make sure they use their childhood learning potential to learn Math and other sciences. I believe that making it fun and setting good examples of the use of Math might increase their interest in the subject. I don’t know if my children will be smart, average or dumb as a rock, but at least exposing them to a comparable education to that of Math powerhouses shouldn’t hurt and could have lots of upside potential.
@Walrus: no I know exactly when you said plurality, and there is no plurality when you start looking at PhD programs in math, science, econ or finance (particularly at top schools): ex. Note this is even at the Master’s level: http://www.math.nyu.edu/financial_mathematics/content/04_current/02.html Jewish Americans should be considered separately as well, much like Indians, Russians, Asians etc. They function in a very tightly knit community that supports all members; they are particularly well adapted to life’s travails through their cultural experiences and thousands of years of a nomadic lifestyle (i.e. they don’t take anything for granted). “The fact that immigrant parents are able to push their children to excel in US schools is reflective of these opportunities. It does not indicate that the system is inferior.” Umm, no! They have to push their children hard OUTSIDE of school, because our primary and secondary system SUCKS! Please see my experience for anecdotal evidence (flew books in from Russia to supplement crappy schooling). “Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are not the children of immigrants.” “It is a credit to US immigrants that they have managed to achieve so much in this country. However, this does not detract from the fact that there are many home-grown geniuses here as well.” I didn’t say there weren’t some truly bright Americans, statistical anomalies abound all around us, Gates and Buffet are simply expected outcomes of a natural statistical process with which race/ethnicity has to do very little and luck can take the majority of the credit. However, you are missing the point that we are talking about the average student (i.e. center of population, not the tails), since there is no way to know if OPs child is a genius or not. And for the average student a different education system, than what the US currently offers, would be a great boon (like you say those destined to win Fields medals will win them anyhow) and would significantly improve quality of life and understanding. It is for this student that the system is woefully inadequate; since there are classes for the more advanced students, even though still inadequate IMO. What I am saying is that by “forcing” students to have to take these math, chem, and physics courses with out any other option they have no choice but to learn and whats best about this is that they have to learn while their mind is still open and not predisposed to routine/standard ways of thinking. “These people chose to immigrate to America for many reasons, including educational opportunities for their children.” Maybe collegiate opportunities but they are very realistic about the primary and secondary system here which is why they supplement it so much at home. I mean have you seen the national spelling bee lately? And some of the profiles they do with these kids and how much work their parents actually put into their education and prep? Its amazing!
adavydov7 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > @Walrus: no I know exactly when you said > plurality, and there is no plurality when you > start looking at PhD programs in math, science, > econ or finance (particularly at top schools): Like 10 years ago I went to a meeting of the American Physics Society. Long story short. Probably 80% of attendees barely could speak fluent English.
Part-time Crook Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > adavydov7 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > @Walrus: no I know exactly when you said > > plurality, and there is no plurality when you > > start looking at PhD programs in math, science, > > econ or finance (particularly at top schools): > > Like 10 years ago I went to a meeting of the > American Physics Society. Long story short. > Probably 80% of attendees barely could speak > fluent English. Idiots. Probably couldnt do basical logarithms either. Just pathetic. ^^^ Sarcasm
@Crook: My parents are very much like that. Their English isn’t very good, but their technical English is great and they will drop some Chemistry knowledge on you:)
I’m curious to know why it’s necessary to prioritize mathematics education at a young age over other subjects. At a young age it’s often more important to play than study. Making education a priority from a young age is certainly a good thing, but how that translates into doing a large volumes maths problems is something else. I think more important is teaching children to think big and teach them to work hard to achieve those goals. It has to come from within.
I wrote a thesis on this topic for a writing class that compared math and science education in NJ to the other states in the US and also compared it to the rest of the world when I was an undergrad and heres what I can recall 5/10 engineering/science degrees in the US were awarded to non-naturalized US Citizens so we are clearly becoming a major exporter of technical education and if our science/math education is so poor…why are so many foreign students coming to the US to study math/science? The current structure of math/science education in the US was not fit to optimize learning in the classroom e.g. math and science classes that meet 30-40 mins a day when most educational scholars and educational psychologists believe the subjects require almost twice that amount of time to properly absorb material through lecture and hands on/lab activities Ultimately, many of the posts above are right…it is all about what society values. I was an engineer that gave up science for the promise of working on wall street because at the time, society (and I) valued the fat cat payouts of wall street. We need to find a way to get our kids interested in things like alternative energy and curing diseases if we are ever going to get out of this recession. The quality of our math and science education is not the problem…its our values
But getting people interested in doing science is different from drilling maths problems from age 7 onwards. Just IMO.
The only knowledge is actually knowing who you are and your nature. You can pack on a bunch of facts before you know who you are and just end up knowing less than when you started. Adding something means taking away something. The more useless facts you add the more of something else you lose. But nobody gets that, so nevermind. On the topic of Korea, I’ve had a couple GFs who grew up in Seoul and they say HS there is as hard or harder than college. One girl I knew passed the CPA with absurdly few hrs, she said after a lifetime of training for exams in Korea upbringing, really nothing to it. They do a full HS day there, and then do a evening day as well. Up early and sleep late. Lots of math and skills at taking and destroying exams. She mentioned they don’t really stess independent thinking or the arts.
Math is a useful subject and the earlier one gets good at it, the farther you can go. However, I do think that there is something lost on people who basically get locked in the closet with a calculator, math books, and a violin at age 3, and there seem to be entire cultures of people who do that. It’s true that these people look impressive when you watch them do math or play the violin, but somehow most of these people also seem to come out either very subservient, waiting for life or their bosses to tell them the equation of happiness, or incredibly controlling and arrogant, thinking that because some thought or often self-serving action benefits a larger number of people, the smaller number is therefore expendable (of course! it’s just logic!). I find that it is rare to see the middle ground of human empathy combined with creativity, entrepreneurialism, and balance in the “chain them to a math book” types. It is my conclusion that it is very easy to overdo the 4-th grade calculus program, and that there are other important social skills that get lost in the process. Having said that, I would like more emphasis on mathematics and science later on in schools, starting around 6th or 7th grade. There is some evidence that brain development starts to spurt around then, new neurons being added at a rate that is only higher in the first year of life, and this may create a window in which math skills and other higher logical functions can be acquired more easily and fully.
if you are 5 you will learn as much math and finance as you need with a weekly piano lesson, a couple of family board games, figuring out how to allocate you weekly allowance, and playing marbles with your buddies. I think the basic lack of real life pseudo educational play activities at home is holding back kid’s educational development, probably more so than the lack of old school hours of boring tables. When a kid has an actual connection to the materials the ‘dirty work’ that comes later come more naturally.
akanska Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > if you are 5 you will learn as much math and > finance as you need with a weekly piano lesson, a > couple of family board games, figuring out how to > allocate you weekly allowance, and playing marbles > with your buddies. > > I think the basic lack of real life pseudo > educational play activities at home is holding > back kid’s educational development, probably more > so than the lack of old school hours of boring > tables. When a kid has an actual connection to the > materials the ‘dirty work’ that comes later come > more naturally. I absolutely agree with you. Engaging kids in educational games, helping them become critical creative thinkers goes a long way.
The question is, is the US falling behind due to these policies pursued by Russian and Asian schools? Are we at a disadvantage because kids aren’t studying as much as their counterparts abroad? I personally don’t think so, but some do…